Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[Christopher]

Like, I think a stripped-down, 2-hour version of Hawkeye, Moon Knight, or Ms. Marvel would have been better than most of the real Phase 4 movies.

Whereas I felt the weakness of Ms. Marvel was that it was too short -- it didn't have enough room to develop the characters and events in Jersey City and establish a strong sense of Kamala's community before swerving to the Pakistan segment of the story. It was also too much like the standard origin-movie formula of not having Kamala get her proper costume until the last episode. I would've liked to see a longer opening arc of her becoming Ms. Marvel, getting her costume, and establishing herself as Jersey City's popular hometown hero, at which point the Pakistan arc would kick in and disrupt things for her.

I'm willing to bet they have plans.

Oh, absolutely. I think I heard that Feige has a road map worked out for the next decade of the MCU. What gets announced is only a fraction of what's in the works. That's usually the case in entertainment -- there's normally a long delay between when something is decided behind the scenes and when it's deemed the right time to announce it publicly. So just because we aren't aware of their plans doesn't mean they don't have them. Of course their long-term plans are flexible and adaptable to changing circumstances, as they should be, but there is a long game.

 

[eschaton]

Whereas I felt the weakness of Ms. Marvel was that it was too short -- it didn't have enough room to develop the characters and events in Jersey City and establish a strong sense of Kamala's community before swerving to the Pakistan segment of the story. It was also too much like the standard origin-movie formula of not having Kamala get her proper costume until the last episode. I would've liked to see a longer opening arc of her becoming Ms. Marvel, getting her costume, and establishing herself as Jersey City's popular hometown hero, at which point the Pakistan arc would kick in and disrupt things for her.

I felt like the whole Pakistan thread was unneeded - particularly adding world-threatening stakes to what should be a street-level origin story. I think Damage Control worked better as an antagonist because it had echoes of the whole post 9/11 paranoia regarding Muslim immigrants. Not to say I didn't enjoy having an MCU story which was explicitly tied into some aspect of real-world history outside of the U.S., but...this just wasn't the place for it. Ms. Marvel was best when it kind of hewed to the Spider-Man: Homecoming format, with the added background of being rooted in the Muslim-American experience.

Hell, Bruno really, really reminded me of an off-brand Tom Holland Spider-Man as well.

 

[Christopher]

I felt like the whole Pakistan thread was unneeded - particularly adding world-threatening stakes to what should be a street-level origin story. I think Damage Control worked better as an antagonist because it had echoes of the whole post 9/11 paranoia regarding Muslim immigrants. Not to say I didn't enjoy having an MCU story which was explicitly tied into some aspect of real-world history outside of the U.S., but...this just wasn't the place for it. Ms. Marvel was best when it kind of hewed to the Spider-Man: Homecoming format, with the added background of being rooted in the Muslim-American experience.

I could've done without the world-threatening stakes, but I think it was important to tie the story into Partition. You can't tell a story about Pakistani or Pakistani-American culture without addressing Partition, and a big part of the immigrant experience is the contrast among generations -- the people in the old country, the first-generation immigrants, and their American-born children. Those were important parts of Kamala's story to explore.

That's why I think the season should've been longer, so that it wouldn't have been necessary to choose between the two. You could've had a season that was mostly street-level and Jersey-based, but also made room for the exploration of Kamala's heritage. I mean, maybe they could've saved the Pakistan arc for a second season, the way the comics saved it for a later arc, but even Marvel couldn't guarantee they'd get a second season.

 

[eschaton]

I could've done without the world-threatening stakes, but I think it was important to tie the story into Partition. You can't tell a story about Pakistani or Pakistani-American culture without addressing Partition, and a big part of the immigrant experience is the contrast among generations -- the people in the old country, the first-generation immigrants, and their American-born children. Those were important parts of Kamala's story to explore.

That's why I think the season should've been longer, so that it wouldn't have been necessary to choose between the two. You could've had a season that was mostly street-level and Jersey-based, but also made room for the exploration of Kamala's heritage. I mean, maybe they could've saved the Pakistan arc for a second season, the way the comics saved it for a later arc, but even Marvel couldn't guarantee they'd get a second season.

As I've said before - even in this thread - in general Marvel just overstuffed everything in Phase 4 (minus the one-off specials, and arguably Moon Knight and Loki), weakening central character arcs basically everywhere due to a desire to add some mixture of continuity porn and unneeded epic stakes to a number of stories which were fundamentally mostly meant as either origin stories or passings-of-the baton.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Like others I see a Young Avengers/Champions being built
Iron Lad: He's young Kang. (Loki and A&W:Q)
Patriot: Eli Bradley (F&WS)
Hulkling: Teddy Altman Kree/Skrull Hybrid (CM, the Marvels, SI) The species are in play, Son of Mar-Vell?
Wiccan: Billy (WandaVision, DS&TMoM)
Speed: Tommy (WandaVision, DS&TMoM)
Hawkeye: Kate Bishop (Hawkeye)
Stature/Stinger: Cassie Lang (A&W:Q)
Kid Loki: (Loki)
America Chavez: (DS&TMoM)
Ms Marvel: Kamala Khan (MM, Marvels)
Ironheart: Riri Williams (BP:WF)
Nova: Sam Alexander (GotG) Organization is in play

 

[Dee1891]

Have you considered being rational and waiting for the movie to explain a scenario you created in your head? We know all these characters are involved. We have literally zero concept as to who works for who and why. The entire full capital 'why' really is a childish little internet-attention attempt.

Dude! C'mon! Seriously? What the hell? "A childish little internet-attention attempt"? I didn't realize that my words had pissed you off to the point that you had to insult me. Why did you feel the need to insult me in the first place? How did my words personally insult you? Jesus Christ!

 

[FPAlpha]

Were the TV shows really such a bad idea? I mean, what's really so wrong with them?

No, the TV shows were a great idea to flesh out or introduce new characters that the movies didn't really have time for.

The sheer volume was a bit too much though, it felt like every month a new show started or one just ended and on to the next show. Spacing them a bit out would probably be better but then again you can never get enough of good quality shows, something where the Marvel shows varied quite a bit in my opinion.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I suspect that the expedited release rate for the Disney Plus shows had to do with Disney wanting a comfortable amount of original content available for its streaming platform. Now that that's been accomplished, they can slow down the pace a little bit.

 

[The Knappos]

I really don't see why that matters. The crossovers are a part, not the whole. They're not the only reason for the MCU's existence. All that matters is that the characters are the leads of their own movies and series. The MCU isn't one storyline, it's a shared universe of multiple series. There doesn't have to be a "leader."

Although it seems to me that the most logical candidates for "lead" roles, if any, are the ones whose next movies we're still waiting for -- the two Captains, Carol Danvers and Sam Wilson. T'Challa probably would've been the other lead if he'd lived. Spider-Man will probably still have a major role to play, though that's complicated by Sony's control of the rights. Otherwise, Marvel may be keeping the "lead" roles open for the Fantastic Four and the X-Men.

Mostly it's about perception. It may not be necessary from a narrative perspective (I agree there) but we're talking about audience sentiment and perception and outside of the diagetic, it's what audiences expectations are set to.

And in any ensemble, even one as nebulous as the MCU is become in Infinity War & Endgame, you still had a focused set of leads around whom to anchor the three main story strands.

Mackie has already said his Cap won't be the leader Evans' was. I can see Reed Richards being one, sure.

But without them, there's no galvanising presence and there's less focus. And that is where, I think, the reduced audience engagement is coming from.

 

[eschaton]

No, the TV shows were a great idea to flesh out or introduce new characters that the movies didn't really have time for.

The sheer volume was a bit too much though, it felt like every month a new show started or one just ended and on to the next show. Spacing them a bit out would probably be better but then again you can never get enough of good quality shows, something where the Marvel shows varied quite a bit in my opinion.

I feel like the quality of the tv shows was a lot more consistent than the quality of the movies. None of them blew me away other than Loki, but none of them were awful either (though What If...? felt pretty pointless).

There was a lot more inconsistency within the series than between them. Lots of cases of great individual episodes, but where the series as a whole didn't land - often because of a face-plant to some extent in the third act.

 

[Set Harth]

what Tarantino said about the likes of RDJ or Chris Evans not being movie stars

the what now

 

[Morpheus 02]

Hell, Bruno really, really reminded me of an off-brand Tom Holland Spider-Man as well.

We don't talk about Bruno. No. No. No.

I suspect that the expedited release rate for the Disney Plus shows had to do with Disney wanting a comfortable amount of original content available for its streaming platform. Now that that's been accomplished, they can slow down the pace a little bit.

i agree. Simply having all the Marvel & Star Wars movies wouldn't be enough for me or others to subscribe. But having some original content would make me want to try it out... and then hang on to the subscription when the next show came out the next month... and then i am stuck And that is what they were hoping.

But as you said,they can slow down(or at least add more categories for new content)

 

[kirk55555]

Disney+ needs more MCU and Star Wars content, not less. Who wants less new stuff on a streaming service? The problem isn't the quantity (except that there isn't enough of it at times), its the mediocre writing of a lot of the shows thats the problem, and that isn't a time based problem.

There is already enough dry spells when D+ has nothing new for people older then early teens for months on end, having less would put in into almost Peacock levels of worthlessness as a streaming service.

 

[fireproof78]

Who wants less new stuff on a streaming service?

Me.

Only so many hours in the day right now.

Also, regardless of what I want they probably will slow down because of current money issues.

 

[JD]

Well, if Spidey, Doctor Strange, etc. keep showing up in team-up movies and crossovers as well as their own solo movies, I don't see any reason Pugh couldn't do both Thunderbolts and Avengers.

OK, that's a fair point.

Although it seems to me that the most logical candidates for "lead" roles, if any, are the ones whose next movies we're still waiting for -- the two Captains, Carol Danvers and Sam Wilson. T'Challa probably would've been the other lead if he'd lived. Spider-Man will probably still have a major role to play, though that's complicated by Sony's control of the rights. Otherwise, Marvel may be keeping the "lead" roles open for the Fantastic Four and the X-Men.

I do agree about Capt. Marvel being a good choice for one of the new Avengers leads, but I'd go with Dr. Strange, and Hulk for the other two. They're the longest running members left besides Thor, and with his current characterization, I can't really see him being put front and center in the less comedic Avengers movies.

 

[theenglish]

I feel like the quality of the tv shows was a lot more consistent than the quality of the movies. None of them blew me away other than Loki, but none of them were awful either (though What If...? felt pretty pointless).

There was a lot more inconsistency within the series than between them. Lots of cases of great individual episodes, but where the series as a whole didn't land - often because of a face-plant to some extent in the third act.

I agree with this overall--the shows really did a great job of fleshing out the characters they introduced. A lot of them felt rushed and could have used a couple more episodes or cutting out some of the plot elements. But I really liked the new characters and can't think of a single character or actor I wouldn't like to see again.

 

[theenglish]

I do agree about Capt. Marvel being a good choice for one of the new Avengers leads, but I'd go with Dr. Strange, and Hulk for the other two. They're the longest running members left besides Thor, and with his current characterization, I can't really see him being put front and center in the less comedic Avengers movies.

That sounds like a Defenders movie to me.

 

[Ethros]

Just in regards to the Young Avengers thing, feel like this has been touted for years now, and apparently they still have no plans for it. Hailee Steinfeld in particular is already 26, and would presumably be at least 27/28 by the time any future project comes out.

Scarlett Johansson was 27 when Avengers was released, and 25 in Iron Man 2. It never felt like she needed to be on some kiddy team, so would be odd for Kate Bishop to have to be

 

[Grendelsbayne]

It could very well be that they're a version of the Young Avengers without actually using the word young. Ie, that they'll just be 'the Avengers' (or maybe 'the New Avengers').

 

[Christopher]

Just in regards to the Young Avengers thing, feel like this has been touted for years now, and apparently they still have no plans for it. Hailee Steinfeld in particular is already 26, and would presumably be at least 27/28 by the time any future project comes out.

Scarlett Johansson was 27 when Avengers was released, and 25 in Iron Man 2. It never felt like she needed to be on some kiddy team, so would be odd for Kate Bishop to have to be

Just because they were the Young Avengers in the comics doesn't mean they can't just be the Avengers onscreen. Like how the HBO Max series is Titans instead of Teen Titans.