Last Christmas Grading and Discussion Thread

[Mr Awe]

What the heck?! It was made totally clear in the <insert episode title> that <Danny/Davros/Daleks/The Master/virtually any & all previous incarnations of The Doctor> is gone for good.

Fixed that for you. Characters that have been definitively resolved reappear all the time on this show. Or hadn't you noticed?

It seems that Moffat got the message that the character was <a whiney, needy, bore/much beloved & the subject of much slash fic>.

Fixed that for you as well.

It's also clear that Clara will be travelling with the Doctor and their baggage was dealt with and done with, unless it ever again serves a useful purpose storywise, in which case it will return, full force.

It should be <great/dull as dirt>!

Ditto

You probably think you're being clever with the "I've fixed that for you" bit. But, you can tell a lot by how the narrative is working. What is the story that is being told?

So, with Davros, the Daleks, and the Master, yeah, no big surprise that they have come back and will certainly reappear again.

However, the story they were telling for Danny was one of closure. It's extremely unlikely that he'll come back as a real character. Sure, there's a small chance he will, but he's in an entirely different category than Davros/Daleks/Master.

Sure, characters can come back, but you have to look at the context and see what is intended. A closer viewing is in order.

Mr Awe

 

[Mr Awe]

I don't think Danny was miscast. I think the issue with the character was that he had an unbelievable past (sergeant in five years in the army) and that the reason for his leaving the army, the death of a kid, was briefly mentioned and then handled off-screen by Clara. There could be an episode, like Ghost Light, wherein Danny confronts his past as a passenger on the Doctor's TARDIS.

The actor wasn't the problem with Danny, nor was his past. In fact, Danny could have been a GREAT character . . . on a different show. The problem with Danny was that he was a protagonist on Doctor Who.

Now, they don't have to all be cut from the same cloth, but Doctor Who is about adventure, magic, travel, etc. Danny just didn't fit that mold. If he had been a one appearance character, no problem. But, he played a major role in the course of the season and influenced the Doctor and Clara.

My view is that giving such a strong role to a stick in the mud, demanding, needy sort of character detracted from Doctor Who. As did the soapy elements the character brought along with him.

It may have worked just fine in a different type of show, but not Doctor Who.

Mr Awe

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I disagree that the proposition of the character was a problem. The Brigadier was also a military figure, but he was competently portrayed and acted by the late Nicholas Courtney that he fit the show.

The character was sloppily written and badly portrayed by the actor. On top of that, you had the literaly underutlized and unexplored "Doctor hates soldiers" theme.

 

[Mr Awe]

The Brig may not have shared the same philosophy as the Doctor, but he wasn't oppossed to getting out there and taking care of business. He'd never ask someone to not travel with the Doctor. He wasn't a needy stick-in-the-mud. And, no soapy elements with him!

There's more to a character than simply whether they were in the military!

I do agree that the Doctor hates soldiers thing was sloppily included. It felt very artificial and tacked on. The final episode had lots of sloppy writing. The character and portrayal of Danny was fine, but for a different show. I thought Anderson did a great job with the material in the Christmas special.

Mr Awe

 

[YellowSubmarine]

I don't want to bash Pink – I don't mind him, but Blue would have been a better companion.

 

[Mr Awe]

^ Blue, or the guy in Flatline.

 

[Mytran]

The weird thing to me was how much more charismatic Danny Pink was in this episode than ever before. It made me wish I could have seen this Danny in all the episodes prior , as his farewell made me want to miss him. Is this maybe what Clara saw in him but we the audience never did?

Ah, well. He's gone now

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well, Orson is still out there.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

I think Samuel Anderson is a Cylon, just like Sam Anders is a Cylon. If he wasn't a Cylon, then why the frakk would his parents name him that?

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks this.

I've wondered if Clara and Danny didn't have chemistry because they weren't supposed to and Clara's interest in Danny was founded on a sham, namely Orson. Perhaps the Doctor engineered the situation in "Listen" so that Clara would form an emotional attachment to someone that would result in a weapon he could use against the Master in "Death in Heaven." The Doctor used the blackboard to pass messages to himself from the future, which is how he knew to set it all up. The result is a long game as manipulative as any the seventh Doctor ran.

Wow, that's a convoluted theory. Frankly, I don't see the 12th Doctor as being that much of a planner. I think he's more of an act-on-instinct kind of Doctor closer to the 5th or 6th Doctors.

Hell, maybe the Doctor is even responsible for both of them getting hired at Coal Hill. Sure would explain how they're both teachers despite not having enough time to get education degrees.

I think I've heard this before and I still don't get it. IIRC, pretty much everything from "The Day of the Doctor" onwards is set around 2016. Assuming Clara already had some prior credits that could transfer over, I think that gives her plenty of time.

And I didn't realize that we had a firm enough timeline with Danny Pink to rule out much of anything. All we know is that he fought in Afghanistan, but that war's been going on an awful long time.

And really if Clara were a normal companion she'd have no time for a job or a boyfriend.

Yeah, that's what bothers me about Clara more than anything else. (That and going nuts and threatening to destroy the TARDIS.)

I don't want to bash Pink – I don't mind him, but Blue would have been a better companion.

I'm still so pissed off about the ending of "Into the Dalek."

 

[Aldo]

While I realize this isn't the shows fault as I suppose I was misinformed, but was it ever rumored that Danny was going to be a companion to and travel with them? That's why he disappointed me because I kept waiting for the episode where he and the Doctor made amends and joined up.

Like I said, that's not the shows fault I expected that to happen, but I'm kind of disappointed it never did.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Pink bashing sounds like code for female masturbation.

The Ending of into the Dalek.

The Doctor had to dis Vod, "I don't like soldiers" as precedents, a foundation for his animosity towards Danny.

THEYTHREWHERUNDERTHEBUS!!!

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Pete Tyler was the father of Jackie's baby (Tony), not Mickey

Oh, that's what they want you to think!

(No seriously, this is one of those conspiracies weirdos persist is real. The only difference is that Noel Clark said/agreed she was carrying Mickey's baby at a couple conventions as a joke.)

In fairness, there's nothing on screen in "Doomsday," "The Stolen Earth," "Journey's End," or "The End of Time, Part 2" that directly contradicts that. It would make things weird but family units deal with weird shit all the time. (However, it would make Mickey something of a deadbeat dad since he abandoned Jackie & child to a parallel universe in "Journey's End.")

Yeah, whatever else people may think regarding Clara and whether or not her story is done or if it can continue, Danny's is definitely complete. He's dead, there is no coming back. Unless they decide to do something in Clara's last episode where Danny appears much like Amy did in Time of the Doctor, I doubt he'll ever be back again.

I've got a theory that, in Clara's final episode, she decides she wants to have children, so the Doctor takes her back to a time before Danny died, she gets pregnant by him, and thus is still able to be Orson's great-grandmother.

 

[The Wormhole]

I think I've heard this before and I still don't get it. IIRC, pretty much everything from "The Day of the Doctor" onwards is set around 2016. Assuming Clara already had some prior credits that could transfer over, I think that gives her plenty of time.

I'm assuming she didn't have any time in in university prior to her introduction since in The Bells of St John she knows absolutely nothing about computers to the point it's apparently a clue something's going on when she mentions Twitter. A modern-day university student would pretty much have to be a computer expert. Hell, their application was probably filled out online.

And I didn't realize that we had a firm enough timeline with Danny Pink to rule out much of anything. All we know is that he fought in Afghanistan, but that war's been going on an awful long time.

Admittedly, with Danny it was mostly guesswork. I start with the fact that Samuel Anderson would have been thirty while filming the season. Assuming Danny is also thirty, and that he did graduate high school when he was 18, that would mean that in 12 years he enlisted in the Army, worked his way up to sergeant, was eventually discharged and went to university to get an education degree. Actually, he did that in less than 12 years since according to The Caretaker he was already at Coal Hill for at least a year (Courtney's dad notes Danny's comment about her isn't as bad as what he said last year).

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I can't believe we associate the weakness of the Danny-Clara dynamic to race issues and relegate the discussion to such a level. Can't it be possible that Moffat and co. just didn't realize this war-veteran-with-a-heart-of-gold well enough? Cause to me, that clearly is the case. Nothing race-related.

Actually, it might be attributed to this thread for the "Doctor Who" episode 'Into the Dalek:'
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=253132&page=8

Starting w/post #73....up to post #151.

Hardly, there are those (myself included) who would have preferred a relationship between Clara and Rigsy from Flatline instead of Danny, so clearly race isn't the issue. He was just a really bland and uninteresting character.

Well, maybe for some race wasn't an issue, but there were those who were vocal about the Who producers 'forcing' interracial relationships on the audience. So to say race was completely a non-issue with those who hate the Danny character is nonsense. We're coming to the usual 'It's not about race' card when in some cases, it is.

When time permits, I'm going back to search in one of the Who review threads to find said comments about producers 'forcing interracial relationships' since I also want to put those comments in my 'Race and Fandom' blog.

Okay, I do vaguely remember stuff in the review threads for Into the Dalek or The Caretaker, but to be completely honest, I don't pay attention to people who voice those opinions. Those people are bigoted douchebags and its best to ignore them.

But regardless, I'm fairly certain they are a minority of the ant-Danny camp and most people who are against the character are against him because of how he was written, not what colour his skin is. At the very least, I feel confident no one in this very thread felt race was an issue.

Maybe...maybe not. It's the internet. That's why we usually have discussions to see where everyone stands...

 

[Starkers]

Ah so we’re using the actors actual age as his character’s age to make a point, of course, actors always play characters who are the same age as them. Eccleston was famously 900 years old when he played the Doctor after all. Danny Pink could be 30, but could conceivably be 32 or even older (or in fairness younger) we just don’t know. As for graduating high school at 18 and joining up, Danny Pink is British, which means he could have left school and joined the army at 16. If Danny’s actually 32 then right there I’ve added four years to his timeline. It’s still potentially a tight timescale, and maybe it would have made more sense for him to be a corporal not a sergeant, but it’s not completely improbable.

As for Courtney’s dad’s comments, I think it’s a mistake on the part of Roberts’ script most likely, but if not then two things come to mind. Firstly Courtney’s dad thinks all teachers look alike, or secondly ‘year’ in a British school sense can refer to an academic year so it’s possible that Danny joined Coal Hill in the summer term, and they had a parent’s evening, and the parent’s evening in the Caretaker was in the Autumn term, just a few months apart yet ‘last year’ makes perfect sense. And of course given its 6th January now, when I talk about what happened at the end of last year I’m only talking about a week ago so we could be looking at a situation of the same academic year which bridges two calendar years.

I kinda liked Danny, he was a different kind of Who character, and I don’t see him as a stick in the mud, he was a counterpoint to the Doctor, someone who offered Clara stability, roots, a family in contrast to the Doctor who, let’s be honest, just offers danger, adventure and the ultimate sightseeing tour (and despite what some fans say I’d still contest that the majority of people would only be able to do that for a finite period before feeling the need to settle down.) I think they could have handled the character better, and I would have liked to see him travel in the Tardis, but overall I liked Anderson as an actor.

 

[JoeZhang]

A modern-day university student would pretty much have to be a computer expert. Hell, their application was probably filled out online.

An academic notes: No. :-)

 

[Mr Awe]

I kinda liked Danny, he was a different kind of Who character, and I don’t see him as a stick in the mud, he was a counterpoint to the Doctor, someone who offered Clara stability, roots, a family in contrast to the Doctor who, let’s be honest, just offers danger, adventure and the ultimate sightseeing tour (and despite what some fans say I’d still contest that the majority of people would only be able to do that for a finite period before feeling the need to settle down.) I think they could have handled the character better, and I would have liked to see him travel in the Tardis, but overall I liked Anderson as an actor.

Despite my complaints, I actually thought Anderson and the character were fine. I just don't think they work in Doctor Who.

Part of that wasn't the character's fault but how the show tried to shoehorn in a conflict with the Doctor. First we had the mysterious "anti-soldier" stuff in the Dalek story. Obviously that was trying to set the ground work for when the Doctor meets Danny. But, it just didn't feel right. And, then the conflict with Danny. It just didn't feel right that the Doctor would be so darn mean for no good reason.

For the character himself, well, I've called him a stick-in-the-mud. Maybe he had good reasons to live a quiet life at home. And, all of that could make him interesting in a different show. But, for me, Doctor Who is all about embracing the magical adventure of traveling with the Doctor. Obviously, DW is different things to different people. But, for me, the show is at its best with that context.

Danny was diametrically oppossed to that. That explains a lot of what I didn't like about him. Now, if he had been a one shot character, not such a big deal. But, he really influenced the regulars and was a recurring problem. And, in the same vein, I didn't like the part-time companion role of Clara. Again, embrace the magic of travelling with the Doctor! It felt like Danny was the anchor that kept dragging Clara back.

I do agree that in the real world, anyone would want stability after awhile. I guess Danny represents the real world reaction to lots of "adventure" like that. Of course, Danny was fighting a war but I'm sure the companions would experience similar trauma. However, for me at least, Doctor Who isn't about that. Or at least not to drag you through that for a prolonged period! Again, if he were a one shot character making that point, that's just fine. Of course, YMMV for what Doctor Who is about.

I do see the point that Moffat was making with the character and the role he wanted Danny to play. I think through a combination of weak writing to set that role up and the fact that the character doesn't work in DW context is what made him feel like a stick-in-the-mud bore. And, the effects on the other characters that were required to artificially keep that tension going (PE teacher?!) just didn't work or suit the regulars.

Mr Awe

 

[The Wormhole]

Ah so we’re using the actors actual age as his character’s age to make a point, of course, actors always play characters who are the same age as them. Eccleston was famously 900 years old when he played the Doctor after all. Danny Pink could be 30, but could conceivably be 32 or even older (or in fairness younger) we just don’t know. As for graduating high school at 18 and joining up, Danny Pink is British, which means he could have left school and joined the army at 16. If Danny’s actually 32 then right there I’ve added four years to his timeline. It’s still potentially a tight timescale, and maybe it would have made more sense for him to be a corporal not a sergeant, but it’s not completely improbable.

True, but given Clara is 27 (and the same age as Jenna Coleman) I assumed that Danny is meant to be generally the same age, and Moffat does seem to enjoy keeping the human characters the same age as their actors. Amy was the same age as Karen Gillan when she was introduced. Hell, the fact that the "modern day" stories are actually supposed to be a few later is ignored just so Clara could be born the same year Jenna Coleman was. Like I said, it was guesswork, but reasonable guesswork.

As for Courtney’s dad’s comments, I think it’s a mistake on the part of Roberts’ script most likely,

Except, it was co-written by Moffat, so Roberts can't really be blamed.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

I think I've heard this before and I still don't get it. IIRC, pretty much everything from "The Day of the Doctor" onwards is set around 2016. Assuming Clara already had some prior credits that could transfer over, I think that gives her plenty of time.

I'm assuming she didn't have any time in in university prior to her introduction since in The Bells of St John she knows absolutely nothing about computers to the point it's apparently a clue something's going on when she mentions Twitter. A modern-day university student would pretty much have to be a computer expert. Hell, their application was probably filled out online.

I don't know about that. I think you can do a lot with computers but still not really understand the first thing about them. (And that Twitter thing never really made much sense to me. You don't need to be a computer genius to make that kind of joke about Twitter. You just need to be pop-culture savvy.)

And I didn't realize that we had a firm enough timeline with Danny Pink to rule out much of anything. All we know is that he fought in Afghanistan, but that war's been going on an awful long time.

Admittedly, with Danny it was mostly guesswork. I start with the fact that Samuel Anderson would have been thirty while filming the season. Assuming Danny is also thirty, and that he did graduate high school when he was 18, that would mean that in 12 years he enlisted in the Army, worked his way up to sergeant, was eventually discharged and went to university to get an education degree. Actually, he did that in less than 12 years since according to The Caretaker he was already at Coal Hill for at least a year (Courtney's dad notes Danny's comment about her isn't as bad as what he said last year).

While I usually use the actor's age as a baseline for rough guesswork about this sort of thing, I think we probably have to discard it in this case since it contradicts (or at least chafes uncomfortably against) the onscreen evidence.

And there are times in Doctor Who when the actors play characters that are not the same age. Then 24-year-old Karen Gillan played a 31-year-old version of Amy in "The Angels Take Manhattan." Arthur Darvill is 5 years older than Karen Gillan, yet "Let's Kill Hitler" implies that Rory & Amy are the same age.

I go back & forth on whether I like Danny. I thought his early interactions with Clara were pretty cute in "Into the Dalek," "Listen," & "Time Heist." But he & the Doctor were both real first class jerks to each other in "The Caretaker." I judge Danny more harshly for this then the Doctor because (1) it's the Doctor's show and I automatically default to his side and (2) I know that, deep down, the Doctor doesn't really mean anything by it. He's that way with everyone. Hell, he's that way with Clara half the time and she puts up with it because she knows that he doesn't mean it.

I think Mr Awe makes a good point that Danny isn't necessarily a bad character; he's just a bad match for Doctor Who. He's a character on an adventure show that (1) never goes on any of the adventures and (2) intensely dislikes the central hero for unclear reasons.

 

[Starkers]

I can see where people are coming from in saying that Danny is a poor fit for Doctor Who, but I still maintain that the point is he’s supposed to be the counterpoint to the Doctor. He went on an adventure and the upshot of that ‘adventure’ was him inadvertently killing a child. That’s going to fuck anyone up. Of course the Doctor has done bad things, but his reaction is to keep running towards another adventure whereas Danny retreated, in many ways they’re flipsides of the same coin. I do see what people mean though, and I agree that he was better in the early episodes.

As for Danny not liking the Doctor, frankly this makes perfect sense. Imagine it, you’ve met a great guy/gal who, as far as you’re aware they’re a teacher like you. You start seeing each other, maybe even fall in love, and then he/she reveals that they spend their spare time with an extravagant older man/woman who jets them round the world in their private jet, showing them all the wonders and dropping them frequently into war zones. Put yourself in Danny’s shoes. You’re not going to think “The Doctor’s fantastic!” No, at least initially you’re going to see him as A/ a rival for Clara’s affections and B/A dangerous man who’s likely to get the woman you love killed.