Klingons appearance - history repeats itself

[jaime]

I never thought of this!

That makes perfect sense - to hide Tyler under all the Voq makeup so that we’d “never” recognise him - which, tbf, wouldn’t have worked with the earlier makeup because actors were relatively easy to identify.

Problem is we’ve got a new species of Klingon to deal with. They’re probably not from the Ketha lowlands...

It can work. People are sometimes surprised Hertzler is in Emissary after all. And it’s nothing that couldn’t be done with a beard and some scars in addition to base Klingon. That’s aside from the fact that it didn’t fool anyone anyway, and just became a piece of information the audience had which the characters didn’t. Which also works fine. It was not well planned, and thy went full Neville Page instead. Ok...maybe not full Neville. There weren’t eyes down their throat or something.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

That’s aside from the fact that it didn’t fool anyone anyway,

Definitely haha! Don’t get me wrong I’m not arguing in favour of the new Klingon look - I’d have actually preferred the Klingons to have smooth foreheads... but if one of the motivations for the redesign was to hide Tyler’s face I could kinda get on board with that because it was an integral part of the story. Granted, it wasn’t executed well, but I could live with that explanation - it’s better than “change for the sake of it visual reboot rabble rabble rabble!”

In all honesty I hope they hit us with a follow up to the augment virus story in season 2 so that we see that the new Klingons are a result of the empire trying to reverse the damage done by the human augment dna. DSC seem to like Enterprise - given the references they keep sprinkling in- I’d prefer it if those references became more than just “fandering” (a blend of “fan” and “pandering” because I don’t like the term “fanw***”) even though I’m not holding out much hope for such a story

 

[Spot261]

Anyone ever noticed how often the Daleks change appearance?

How about the Borg?

What about Batman? Not to mention Robin.....

Given that we know they are Klingons and the make up used to portray them changes periodically, are we not over analysing this?

 

[Groppler Zorn]

ever noticed how often the Daleks change appearance

I actually liked the “new paradigm” Daleks (the brightly coloured power ranger ones).

Apparently many whovians did not.

Can I blame Moffatt for the Klingons too?

 

[Spot261]

I actually liked the “new paradigm” Daleks (the brightly coloured power ranger ones).

Apparently many whovians did not.

Can I blame Moffatt for the Klingons too?

If you want, who am I to stop you?

 

[Groppler Zorn]

If you want, who am I to stop you?

Hehe I wouldn’t anyway I enjoyed Moffatt’s DW era for the most part

 

[jaime]

Anyone ever noticed how often the Daleks change appearance?

How about the Borg?

What about Batman? Not to mention Robin.....

Given that we know they are Klingons and the make up used to portray them changes periodically, are we not over analysing this?

The Daleks rarely change appearance actually, and never that dramatically. The first real change in Daleks doesn’t happen until the late eighties, and it’s very minor, and is because of story reasons. The cybermen change much much more...but all of these, and the Borg, are in some way mechanical. Change is logical. Batman? Adaptations. Otherwise we may as well talk about regeneration in Pride and Prejudice.
There are changes in biological races in SF and Trek, but it’s usually either (a) a refinement of existing designs and makeup (like worfs appearance) or (b) after bumping from a relatively minor first appearance to a recurring set up (Odan to Dax) led by production wishes. Contradicting 45 to Ninety minutes of stuff for production reasons.
The original change to the Klingons in TMP, and their evolution through the films and TNG fall under both of these in some respects...contradict three or four episodes of TOS in a five minute sequence in TMP, but squint and it makes sense (and gets ENT to sort out the loophole. Much much later. But that illustrates that DSC should know it’s going to cause a bump in the road. It has before.) followed by the redesign for Kruge and Co because they are going to be on screen much more in TSFS, but keeping it in lineage with what came before. We see this throughout, until Worf in TNG is literally wearing an old Klingon sash from TOS. There’s a continuity.

DSC has time to build the continuity back in, and in some ways these are new paradigm Klingons (to go back to the Daleks.) because not only are they a radical change, but they are a radical change that on some levels just doesn’t work, are mocked by some, and disliked by some. Enough of those ‘some’ add up to needing to walk it back a little (the same on the ships, perhaps more so.) because it’s an avoidable mistake for various reasons. This isn’t a refinement, or a riff on design language already established, it’s a bit of a mess (even the new Batleths are too overwrought.) created by either too much control at the top, or a lack of it, and a mess in communications between departments. That and our familiar face off judges just needing to prove themselves and going waaaay too far.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Plus, the Borg were constantly assimilating and integrating new technology, which would reasonably lead to visible changes.

Kor

Would have been a perfectly reasonable explanation, if the new look didn't appear in Voyager's "Dark Frontier" during the flashback scenes with the Hansons...

 

[Spot261]

The Daleks rarely change appearance actually, and never that dramatically. The first real change in Daleks doesn’t happen until the late eighties, and it’s very minor, and is because of story reasons. The cybermen change much much more...but all of these, and the Borg, are in some way mechanical. Change is logical. Batman? Adaptations. Otherwise we may as well talk about regeneration in Pride and Prejudice.
There are changes in biological races in SF and Trek, but it’s usually either (a) a refinement of existing designs and makeup (like worfs appearance) or (b) after bumping from a relatively minor first appearance to a recurring set up (Odan to Dax) led by production wishes. Contradicting 45 to Ninety minutes of stuff for production reasons.
The original change to the Klingons in TMP, and their evolution through the films and TNG fall under both of these in some respects...contradict three or four episodes of TOS in a five minute sequence in TMP, but squint and it makes sense (and gets ENT to sort out the loophole. Much much later. But that illustrates that DSC should know it’s going to cause a bump in the road. It has before.) followed by the redesign for Kruge and Co because they are going to be on screen much more in TSFS, but keeping it in lineage with what came before. We see this throughout, until Worf in TNG is literally wearing an old Klingon sash from TOS. There’s a continuity.

DSC has time to build the continuity back in, and in some ways these are new paradigm Klingons (to go back to the Daleks.) because not only are they a radical change, but they are a radical change that on some levels just doesn’t work, are mocked by some, and disliked by some. Enough of those ‘some’ add up to needing to walk it back a little (the same on the ships, perhaps more so.) because it’s an avoidable mistake for various reasons. This isn’t a refinement, or a riff on design language already established, it’s a bit of a mess (even the new Batleths are too overwrought.) created by either too much control at the top, or a lack of it, and a mess in communications between departments. That and our familiar face off judges just needing to prove themselves and going waaaay too far.

I don't think "squint and it makes sense" even comes near to fitting how drastic the change from TOS to TMP seemed at the time. People made much the same comments then, but they got over it eventually because it didn't matter.

Likewise Batman, if by "adaptations" you mean he improved his equipment in universe then no, that doesn't explain the changes between versions. It doesn't need explaining. He's been done differently by different teams, it's not the end of the world.

@Unimatrix Q has beat me to the punch on the Borg, that they change in universe over time doesn't make sense given the flashbacks we have seen. Again, someone just had a different vision of how they could be done

 

[jaime]

I don't think "squint and it makes sense" even comes near to fitting how drastic the change from TOS to TMP seemed at the time. People made much the same comments then, but they got over it eventually because it didn't matter.

Likewise Batman, if by "adaptations" you mean he improved his equipment in universe then no, that doesn't explain the changes between versions. It doesn't need explaining. He's been done differently by different teams, it's not the end of the world.

@Unimatrix Q has beat me to the punch on the Borg, that they change in universe over time doesn't make sense given the flashbacks we have seen. Again, someone just had a different vision of how they could be done

I was squinting and making sense of it in the eighties *shrug*

By adaptations , I meant they are adaptations from the source material. Aside from which, yeah he changes gear.

 

[Spot261]

I was squinting and making sense of it in the eighties *shrug*

By adaptations , I meant they are adaptations from the source material. Aside from which, yeah he changes gear.

Fair play, lol,

It just seems to me as a collective fandom, community, whatever, there's a tendency to get really angry over things that just don't matter, whilst the big picture falls by the wayside far too often

 

[jaime]

Fair play, lol,

It just seems to me as a collective fandom, community, whatever, there's a tendency to get really angry over things that just don't matter, whilst the big picture falls by the wayside far too often

Fandom? That’s humanity in a nutshell these days. XD

 

[Spot261]

Fandom? That’s humanity in a nutshell these days. XD

Well, glad you said it.....

 

[Tuskin38]

That's amusing. When it comes to movies and shows, I don't spend my money on things I think I won't enjoy. But, hey, if hate-watching is your thing....

I just meant it was silly to skip 7 seasons of something because of one change in a single episode.

Just skip over it.

 

[Tuskin38]

They tried. Turned out Dorn didn’t like the idea for whatever reason.

It was because of money

 

[jaime]

It was because of money

Yes.
Though he’s not exactly busy and has expensive hobbies. I would suggest it wasn’t enough money to wear that make-up xD

 

[Tuskin38]

Yes.
Though he’s not exactly busy and has expensive hobbies. I would suggest it wasn’t enough money to wear that make-up xD

I doubt it had to do with the makeup.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

I'm "sort of" ok with the Klingon redesign. However, the fact that not a single Klingon we see has hair so far makes it sound as though they aren't meant to grow it. I know nothing canon says they can't atm, but if it continues to be universal amongst Klingons, and they were always meant to be bald, it does go against established canon based on dialogue spoken in TNG era. The mention of rapid hair growth during "Klingon puberty" in Insurrection and the poker game in TNG where Crusher tries to have the men shave their beards if she wins come to mind.

My point being - I, personally don't need a head-canon reason to believe the Klingons are supposed to look like this, as long as hair growth is a reality. I wouldn't have even needed one for the lack of ridges in TOS had an explanation not been forced on us between DS9 and ENT.

DS9 is the one that caused that particular problem, but at the time, it was just a throwaway humorous scene that probably wouldn't have been taken too seriously had the franchise never gone the prequel route.

 

[eschaton]

I'm "sort of" ok with the Klingon redesign. However, the fact that not a single Klingon we see has hair so far makes it sound as though they aren't meant to grow it. I know nothing canon says they can't atm, but if it continues to be universal amongst Klingons, and they were always meant to be bald, it does go against established canon based on dialogue spoken in TNG era. The mention of rapid hair growth during "Klingon puberty" in Insurrection and the poker game in TNG where Crusher tries to have the men shave their beards if she wins come to mind.

There's a couple others too. Worf's mother mentioning how long his hair has grown. And of course the legend of the Sword of Kahless being forged from a lock of his hair. There's no way you can't canonically say that some Klingons can grow hair. At most it might just be out of fashion during the DIS era.

My other issue is just that the makeup is too thick and gets in the way of acting, but I honestly noticed this less as time went on, which makes me think they might have made some subtle changes in it during the season.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I just meant it was silly to skip 7 seasons of something because of one change in a single episode.

Just skip over it.

I'm not "skipping" anything. I've watched it. I'm not supporting the arts in this case financially, because I don't agree with their artistic decisions or however you want to express that discord between artist and audience. I usually get picky when it comes to spending my own money.

[edit - And let's be clear here. We're not talking about a typical episode. As I said, this was a seminal TNG episode, one of the ones that I frequently rewatch. That moment was quite key. The "correction" in the VFX totally ruins it for me. Last time it was on TV, I actually changed the channel. It's just not worth it to spend money on things that provoke that sort of reaction. If they want my business, they.... well, it's clear they didn't ask me.]

Anyway, the point is, I would have preferred not to have the earliest visualization "corrected" to be more like the later more numerous visualizations, an example contrary to the assertion of the poster I was replying to.