Klingon Warriors suck?

[JirinPanthosa]

Any examples you can provide?

Offhand? The only cases I can think of right now that they actually shroud are Gem'Hadar, To The Death, and the one where Eddington dies. In Rocks and Shoals I believe they mention that they are too weak to shroud, though maybe I'm thinking of Hippocratic Oath. I can't remember whether they do in Siege of AR-558. I know they didn't in Magnificent Ferengi or have any kind of shrouded personnel around sensitive areas in Sacrifice of Angels or One Little Ship.

I'd have to watch through the episode to specifically note all the examples.

 

[The Wormhole]

I can't remember whether they do in Siege of AR-558.

I think they do, but I'm not completely certain. At the very least, they do use those cloaked "Houdini" mines, which are later turned against them.

I know they didn't in Magnificent Ferengi or have any kind of shrouded personnel around sensitive areas in Sacrifice of Angels or One Little Ship.

Those are situations where the Jem'Hadar had the upper hand. In the Magnificent Ferengi the ones we see are performing guard duty for a prisoner exchange, there's no need to shroud anyone. All the ones we see in Sacrifice of Angels are the ones assigned to the station, which was under Dominion control. There's nothing to hide from at home. And in One Little Ship, for most of the episode they have the Defiant under their control with the crew all accounted for and being guarded. They had no reason to suspect a miniaturized runabout was flying around the ship, and therefore nothing to hide from.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

No, but they did have prisoners they knew for a fact were plotting against them. They don't sew terror at the prospect there could be a hidden jailer lurking anywhere?

I suppose in any case they don't use it you could make an argument why they didn't use it in that case. Nonetheless, it's an advantage they have that they don't use most of the time. The only use it when it's specifically being used in the story, when that kind of advantage should be in play for every confrontation.

It's kind of like Troi's telepathy. When they want somebody to be able to trick the crew they either say "I guess we just can't read this species' minds" or "I'm feeling a vague sense of misdirection". Like Troi's telepathy, Gem'Hadar shrouding is a plot-conditional advantage.

 

[USS Triumphant]

My theories about the Klingon equipment, their fighting prowess, and their empire:

First, they're *awesome* at fighting, very well trained from a very young age. Why are Federation officers routinely shown kicking their ass, then? Because the fighting style the Klingons are awesome at is the fighting style of a monoculture that mostly got stuck in their equivalent of the 12th century AD. Starfleet officers don't train as early or as often as Klingon warriors, but they train in the most effective fighting techniques known to the 24th century cultures of hundreds of worlds.

Their ships are mostly the remains of the fleet of the species that enslaved them for a while (the H'urq?). So they have ships on par with the 23rd/24th century Federation, but they're not the best at running them, and they actively discourage and disdain the members of their own species that are capable of understanding, repairing, and occasionally maybe even improving the ships, because "they aren't WARRIORS!" The main reasons they've remained a fearsome power is that the H'urq left a TON of ships behind - and the technology exchange with the Romulans in the 23rd century.

Their personal equipment is a combination of their own primitive hand-to-hand armor and weapons, weapons left behind by their former conquerors, and stuff they found or took from others. The latter two have the same problem as their ships, and the former is the reason their armor sucks. "If it was good enough for Kahless, then I will wear it with HONOR!" Derp.

And finally, their empire... is actually mostly the local part of the empire that had conquered them. That empire had its local shipyards and administrative center in Klingon space, and so they just slid right into power over other worlds the H'urq had controlled after they kicked the H'urq out.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Oh, and Worf is a superior Klingon because he combines the Klingons' *slightly* better physical stats with the superior Starfleet combat training.

 

[PhaserLightShow]

Maybe the Federation Officers are trained better (wheras the Klingons train longer).

 

[section31agent]

Klingons get their asses kicked by the main cast because the main cast can't die. But the Klingons kill nameless security officers pretty easily

 

[The Wormhole]

No, but they did have prisoners they knew for a fact were plotting against them. They don't sew terror at the prospect there could be a hidden jailer lurking anywhere?

Well, they needed someone on hand to operate the bridge consoles. Or alternatively, maybe keeping a guard or two shrouded was common practice for the Gamma Jem'Hadar, but the focus was on Alpha Jem'Hadar, Jem'Hadar who were bred in the Alpha Quadrant and conditioned specifically to fight Alpha Quadrant enemies. The Alphas were a bit more arrogant and cocky and insistent on doing things their own way, a philosophy which ultimately led to their defeat at the end of the episode. Perhaps this included the decision to abandon the standard practice of keeping shrouded guards in reserve?

Klingons get their asses kicked by the main cast because the main cast can't die. But the Klingons kill nameless security officers pretty easily

Everyone kills nameless security officers pretty easily.

 

[Timo]

Sure, Worf might be somewhat exceptional, but not by that much.

By how much, though? Worf never outdoes Riker in TNG; indeed, there are a couple of cases where he is struggling with heavy lifting or forcing of sliding doors, and Riker's helping hand is absolutely crucial there. Plus, he fights Riker hand to hand in "Where Silence Has Lease", admittedly apparently under some sort of Klingon blood fever, but for all we can tell, that doesn't turn him weak, just stupid. And note how the slim Jadzia Dax evenly fights him on various occasions, and other Klingons in things like "Blood Oath", but is not noted for her strength and is easily bested by a random humanoidess in "Invasive Procedures".

The thing in "Let That Who Is Without Sin" really stands out as a glaring exception. Perhaps one of the attractions of Risa is low gravity?

As for Jem'Hadar personal shrouding, I trust its main use is in keeping the terrified Dominion citizens guessing. Is there somebody behind my shoulder or not? The shroud is useless in combat, or else these warriors would not become visible every time they engage in combat; possibly it takes way too much concentration to stay invisible during a fight?

So, why don't the Jem'Hadar lurk behind the shoulders of our heroes? The point of such a tactic is that they don't have to - it's similar to mine warfare, where the most effective mine is the one that was never sown, indeed never built. An actually deployed mine or invisible trooper would be an unnecessary expenditure of valuable resources.

If exposing the secret escape plans of prisoners is a concern, then their cell can be bugged by cheap technological means. It's not as if prisoners would be allowed to carry jammers! (OTOH, which prisoner of the Jem'hadar was not deliberately let to escape?)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS Triumphant]

So, why don't the Jem'Hadar lurk behind the shoulders of our heroes? The point of such a tactic is that they don't have to - it's similar to mine warfare, where the most effective mine is the one that was never sown, indeed never built. An actually deployed mine or invisible trooper would be an unnecessary expenditure of valuable resources.

Mostly true - you *do* have to put one here or there *occasionally*, to remind the enemy that it is still something they have to be vigilant (and use up resources) being prepared against.

 

[Timo]

Which is why I trust there also exists a small number of cloak-capable Jem'Hadar warships, for intimidation purposes (but also for the odd special ops mission, such as recovering "Eris" in "Jem'Hadar"). But intimidation through statistical probability is not what the Jem'Hadar want to achieve in the scenario of eavesdropping on our heroes. In such a scenario, they want definite results, and they can get those much better by bugging the room. So none of those instances should be used against the model of intimidation-only cloaking.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ancient]

I'm pretty sure Klingons at least have better stamina - they have three lungs so they don't get winded as easy. I have no idea if that makes any actual medical sense, but that was the way it was portrayed in Voyager. Also, another Voyager factoid was that Klingons can't handle the cold very well - they'll freeze to death easily. I found that interesting.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Human games, such as pareses squares and fencing:

Ugh...you had me until you used Anbo Jyutsu to support your argument...

 

[fireproof78]

I'm pretty sure Klingons at least have better stamina - they have three lungs so they don't get winded as easy. I have no idea if that makes any actual medical sense, but that was the way it was portrayed in Voyager. Also, another Voyager factoid was that Klingons can't handle the cold very well - they'll freeze to death easily. I found that interesting.

Klingon anatomy is supposedly very redundant, with an eight chambered heart as well. I think Ethics established the different anatomy ideas with the Klingons. That might contribute to their endurance.

 

[Timo]

One wonders if redundancy doesn't actually eat into stamina, by consuming that much more resources even when "backup" organs are "idled"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ancient]

Humans have some redundant organs too, 2 kidneys, two lungs, etc. I'm not sure how much energy an extra organ eats up compared to the health advantage of having the work-load spread out a bit more, I'm not a doctor. I imagine that it's just a matter of eating more calories & reaping the benefits.

I was a bit annoyed at how stormtrooperish the Klingons were in DS9. Way of the Warrior comes to mind. Bringing a sword to a gun fight in a tiny corridor is the most backwards strategy I've ever seen.

 

[DarKush]

While we have seen isolated examples of strong Klingons, it would appear that the average Klingon is somewhat weaker than other Humanoids.

A pregnant woman was able to drop a Klingon warrior with a single kick to the stomach.

†

What example is that of a pregnant woman dropping a Klingon? Was that Kira?

While I could go with Klingons are roughly the same strength as other humanoids, but I don't think they are on average weaker. A lot of Klingons are bigger and seem to be more muscled than many humanoids. I think the Klingons haven't been allowed to be formidable for story reasons. The good guys have to win, and sometimes at the expense of Klingon ferocity.

 

[fireproof78]

Humans have some redundant organs too, 2 kidneys, two lungs, etc. I'm not sure how much energy an extra organ eats up compared to the health advantage of having the work-load spread out a bit more, I'm not a doctor. I imagine that it's just a matter of eating more calories & reaping the benefits.

I was a bit annoyed at how stormtrooperish the Klingons were in DS9. Way of the Warrior comes to mind. Bringing a sword to a gun fight in a tiny corridor is the most backwards strategy I've ever seen.

I was pretty annoyed by the over-emphasis on bladed combat versus disruptors and such. It seems to me that their attitudes could have evolved to include such weapons as part of it. But, that's just me and I'm know space warrior

As for redundant organs let me see if I can find the list:

They had twenty-three ribs, two livers, an eight-chambered heart, three lungs, and even redundant neural function as well as multiple stomachs. Some geneticists believed that the extra organs, notably the third lung, evolved to give Klingons greater stamina on the battlefield.

Another interesting note is the design of the Klingon spine from "Ethics." The designer for the model actually measured Dorn's spine but created the vertebrae to be twice the size of a normal human one. There are also ridges along it.

The cultural evolution of the Klingons is definitely interesting, especially if you read some the written material done in other fan work that they were genetically engineered.

 

[Longinus]

I was pretty annoyed by the over-emphasis on bladed combat versus disruptors and such.

Yeah, that was stupid. It was cool for them to have duels and such with bladed weapons but bringing them into actual combat was silly. Maybe those Klingons were really determined to die honourably in combat?

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

What example is that of a pregnant woman dropping a Klingon? Was that Kira?

Think it might have been Torres, in that VOY episode.

But if it was Kira, that wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility, since she is a hardened veteran.