Klingon change for season 2?
- Thread starter Roald
- Start date
Simple. I don't assume I've seen every member of a species based upon a small sample. Also, years and years of watching science fiction.
Cultural trend. We have chemical hair removal now. A species that has been building starships since the 14th century has to have a way to remove hair man.
The thing is not that there *were bald klingons.
The problem was that all klingons were bald. Not just "a small sample". But many samples representating all the various parts of the klingon empire, from geographical differences to the past to alternate universes. Arguing there were haired klingons in S1 is as useless as arguing there were purple humans. You can't "prove" something doesn't exist. But there is significance evidence for said absence. In this case: A statistical significant, representative sample size standing in for all accepted variances - and in that very diverse sample size, not a single hair was found.
They were genetically bald in S1. And now, under new creative leadership, they aren't anymore. It's really that easy. And I laud the new showrunners for doing this step. And even more so for coming up with a mostly convincing explanation as well! That's really the icing on the cake. But arguing that this wasn't the case is frankly ridiculous.
Agree to disagree on this point. If we saw no bald Klingons in TOS could I argue that there are no bald Klingons period? Possibly, but it would be suspect at best.
Based upon what I see on screen I make no conclusions regarding authorial intent nor do I care to. Your conclusion is fine, well and good, but I don't see it that way. The point isn't that there were bald Klingons but rather that they were genetically so. Not sure how "all Klingons on screen are bald" equals "all Klingons are bald due to genetics" happens but I don't see it that way.
Right now, several arguments are getting conflated so let me be simple. On screen does not mean "every Klingon ever." Therefore, there is space for haired Klingons in the future. I can make zero judgement as to their genetic predisposition. That information is only gained through BTS details which have no bearing on on screen material presented.
Concluded away all you want. I have mine.
We only see the warrior cast. you are making wild assumptions not shown on the show. You are claiming they were bald as a species, yet nothing on the show says this or hints at this.
When we see the flashback to T'Kuvma's childhood - getting beat up by the other teenagers - everyone is bald as well.
There was an outbreak of lice at Qo'nos elementary
I do not recall this, are you sure you are not talking about the comics?
In "Battle at the Binary Stars" there was a scene showing young T'Kuvma and other bald "Younglings". No sign of hair...
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Basically, where we now stand onscreen and in-universe is this:
1) Klingons sometimes lack hair.
2) We only ever see this happen in a large scale in DSC S1, although there's also the bald young T'Kumva and his bullies, and the bald old General Chang (who does have a mustache to twirl).
3) Shaving rituals are vaguely mentioned elsewhere, but not in connection with S1.
4) Thick, long hair is standard in all the other eras seen, and in eras mentioned in the passing, including those involving ritual or symbolically significant shaving.
5) Klingons who lack hair in DSC S1 will no longer do so in S2.
6) Klingons overall change a lot, including their cranial structure; this applies to eras but also to individuals.
7) Change is seldom commented on, and Klingons at one point appear ashamed of it.
8) However, change is acknowledged nevertheless, and even explained in detail once (decades after the audiences were faced with it).
What we so far don't know is whether there will be an in-universe explanation, either for S2 or then later down the road. #8 above shows, however, the extent to which TPTB will go to keep Trek consistent overall, for whatever reason.
Will DSC make an exception? It doesn't really matter: the after-the-fact rationalization for the ridges kicked in only in a later spinoff. Even if DSC insists on breaking away from Trek tradition, odds are that there will be a spinoff or a late season where furious backpedaling will make the universe whole again and no contradiction will be left standing. Trek is funny that way.
And this time around, the backpedaling is more likely than ever, for multiple reasons:
- There's plenty of precedent to it now.
- The slow and sparse seasons give TPTB more time and impetus to reflect and react.
- The slow and sparse seasons and multiple parallel spinoffs make it attractive to optimize, and to herd these cats so that the franchise stays a franchise; diversity is there only to serve the greater whole.
Timo Saloniemi
1) Klingons sometimes lack hair.
2) We only ever see this happen in a large scale in DSC S1, although there's also the bald young T'Kumva and his bullies, and the bald old General Chang (who does have a mustache to twirl).
3) Shaving rituals are vaguely mentioned elsewhere, but not in connection with S1.
4) Thick, long hair is standard in all the other eras seen, and in eras mentioned in the passing, including those involving ritual or symbolically significant shaving.
5) Klingons who lack hair in DSC S1 will no longer do so in S2.
6) Klingons overall change a lot, including their cranial structure; this applies to eras but also to individuals.
7) Change is seldom commented on, and Klingons at one point appear ashamed of it.
8) However, change is acknowledged nevertheless, and even explained in detail once (decades after the audiences were faced with it).
What we so far don't know is whether there will be an in-universe explanation, either for S2 or then later down the road. #8 above shows, however, the extent to which TPTB will go to keep Trek consistent overall, for whatever reason.
Will DSC make an exception? It doesn't really matter: the after-the-fact rationalization for the ridges kicked in only in a later spinoff. Even if DSC insists on breaking away from Trek tradition, odds are that there will be a spinoff or a late season where furious backpedaling will make the universe whole again and no contradiction will be left standing. Trek is funny that way.
And this time around, the backpedaling is more likely than ever, for multiple reasons:
- There's plenty of precedent to it now.
- The slow and sparse seasons give TPTB more time and impetus to reflect and react.
- The slow and sparse seasons and multiple parallel spinoffs make it attractive to optimize, and to herd these cats so that the franchise stays a franchise; diversity is there only to serve the greater whole.
Timo Saloniemi
The producers even gave us a perfectly fitting "explanation" for this retcon: "ritualistic shaving for war". Which is absolutely in character for the klingons.
Is it perfect? No. It doesn't cover the flashbacks, that all klingons were already shaved before the war, alternate universes, and that the klingon Empire - which is fractured into different cultures like never before during S1 - suddenly all follow the one, same religous ritual when they are divided on everything else - including rituals. It's pretty weird that they unify around the one that's never mentioned again and seem to never have had any significance in either their past or their future.
That being said: This is the BEST possible explanation we could have been given!
It covers ~90% of all Klingon apperances in S1, and allows for improved make-up in all future seasons, and to integrate DIS better back into the larger Trek canon. And for the most part fits with continuity, both the larger Trek one, but also the internal DIS-one. The original bald re-design was dumb. But how they retconned the retcon was really, really clever and creative!
Is it perfect? No. It doesn't cover the flashbacks, that all klingons were already shaved before the war, alternate universes, and that the klingon Empire - which is fractured into different cultures like never before during S1 - suddenly all follow the one, same religous ritual when they are divided on everything else - including rituals. It's pretty weird that they unify around the one that's never mentioned again and seem to never have had any significance in either their past or their future.
That being said: This is the BEST possible explanation we could have been given!
It covers ~90% of all Klingon apperances in S1, and allows for improved make-up in all future seasons, and to integrate DIS better back into the larger Trek canon. And for the most part fits with continuity, both the larger Trek one, but also the internal DIS-one. The original bald re-design was dumb. But how they retconned the retcon was really, really clever and creative!
Is it better than what we got for the ridges? Definitely. Is it the best they could have done? Not quite, I guess. But it's what we have come to expect, now that the people writing Star Trek are all fans of Star Trek and able to browse through Memory Alpha (and TrekBBS!) at will...
I just hope they won't start playing safe now. S4 of ENT was fun in its own gratuitous way. A S5 on the same format would have been difficult to watch without cringing. By all means re-retcon the retcons. But don't stop throwing curveballs at us, please!
Timo Saloniemi
I just hope they won't start playing safe now. S4 of ENT was fun in its own gratuitous way. A S5 on the same format would have been difficult to watch without cringing. By all means re-retcon the retcons. But don't stop throwing curveballs at us, please!
Timo Saloniemi
Yeah, I don't think the S2 make-up is the "best" klingon make-up design so far - not by a wide margin (for the record: I think The undiscovered Country had the best).
But having that horrific S1 klingon re-design as a starting point, what they did with it for S2 is probably the best that could have been done with it, short of a complete start from scratch (which wouldn't be the best either, because it would stand in bigger contrast to S1). What they did is a mostly smooth transition to a more familiar look. That's enough IMO.
Yes. For me S4 of ENT almost works as a pre-curser to the Kelvin-timeline and now Discovery way of storytelling, in having action-focused stories told around familiar characters and settings. They literally pulled the mirror universe, Section 31, Khan('s genetic siblings) and traditional klingons up first. But they also added a lot of stuff, and had more variety in their season.
But yeah, I'm really not too much looking forward to the "science vs. faith"-stuff they promised for S2 of DIS (mainly based on the people they hired for that), but at least I'm very happy they focused their plot around a completely new mystery/threat!
I think they need to struck a balance, honoring the past in the way it was (not rebooting it every two years), but also add new stuff more often than retreating old stuff.
Some times Klingons have hair. Some times they don't.
Some times humans have hair. Some times they don't.
/thread
Some times humans have hair. Some times they don't.
/thread
The memo is interesting behind the scenes info, but not canonical and overwritten numerous times onscreen (heck, "Court Martial" itself disproves the universal emblem with the brass wearing their own badge). It's along the lines of arguing that Captain Kirk had a green uniform because the actual props were green; it was a filming mistake but is a factual piece of the lore that behind the scenes info has no bearing on.
Still it's a good example of what I'm saying; there's a discrepancy between how stuff was shown onscreen because of creative decisions behind the show that have never exactly been addressed, but people still engage in the stories.
In "Flashback" (VOY), it's commented that there was holographic imaging of some kind during the TOS era (Sulu had a holographic photo taken of him that was still around a century later). There was also the rec room from "The Practical Joker" (TAS).
So, holography had to exist. I think that them using them for communications was a bad idea when we saw the "first" such tech in "For the Uniform" (DS9) a century "later," but hey, it's not that much worse then explaining the TAS rec room when we factually know that holodeck technology didn't exist in the TOS era.
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ENT also had holographic target practice in the 22nd Century.
Actually that isn't a contradiction of the memo, as the delta badge was only for Starship Crew, not all of Starfleet. The memo specifically calls it the 'Starship emblem'
There were meant to be different badges for different branches of Starfleet, but not between starships. I.E. The Merchant Marine has their own badge.
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