Klingon change for season 2?

[Grendelsbayne]

Okay, I see your point of view now. I don't know if I have seen self-contradictory reactions too often however, often I find the criticisms of others understandable, even if I abjectly disagree with them. So I always try to leave a considered response.

In general, I think Trek should aim for a higher standard of coherence, i.e. Marvel's (comparatively) high standards of success in satisfying both new and old fans. I think it falls short at times, and would argue for a more concerted attempt at visual coherence.

Self contradiction is the form least likely to be noticed since the conversation needs to include multiple stories for it to be noticeable, but it definitely happens. Just off the top of my head, the Last Jedi backlash included at least a few people that I saw arguing that Rey was a terrible character/mary sue for having certain character traits while claiming that Luke was ruined by not having them.

I do agree Marvel's success is something to aspire to, and maybe your Klingon example would have been a step in the right direction - I certainly wouldn't have minded. But the focus on visual coherence with a pre-established legacy is not really supported by Marvel's example. They've made tons of visual updates, many just as drastic as the dsc Klingons. Maybe it's just a question of knowing what you can change and what you can't, or of Marvel's pre-existing fanbase being smaller. Maybe it's more complicated than that. It's hard to say why marvel gets away with so much, just that they do.

True grendel, but there is also something as a ‘general consensus’... like there’s a general consensus that The Empire Strikes Back is better than The Phantom Menace... and there’s a general consensus that DS9 was a good Star Trek series (even though there will always be people that think both Empire and DS9 are the worst of the worst)... Even though it won’t affect my personal love for DSC, I’m hoping the general consensus towards it will become that it’s a damn good series.. my guess is this will happen during season 2..!

Sure. But clear, indisputable consensus has always been rare. In examples a few tiers lower than Empire, the consensus is harder to pin down (I'm not at all certain the consensus on ds9 is as good as you think, much as I love it). And the internet's constant distortions make it much harder than it used to be, too.

 

[Norsehound]

Awh what? They're changing the discovery Klingon look? But it was awesome!

Trekmovie.com just posted an informative article about the stuff revealed in Hetrick's STLV panel. I'm not sure what the rules are about posting excerpts from articles on other websites, but to paraphrase what Hetrick said is that all the Klingon Houses have different variations from one another, and in some cases minor genetic differences. We saw that to a certain degree in season one, but we've only seen a handful Houses so far. He also said that not all that not all the Houses originate from Qo'noS and are actually on other planets throughout the Empire. You take that idea and the idea of some minor genetic differences between the Houses, and you marry it with the concept of interbreeding with some non-Klingon races, and of course the Augment stuff, you have plenty of room for some more-familiar looking Klingons.

I have my own pet theory that the TOS/TNG/DSC Klingons are different humanoids that all evolved together on Quo'Nos. The TOS ones became more humanoid cross-breeding with other species, and fighting for power with the TNG breeds. The DSC ones discovered spaceflight first and basically became a space faring race, largely abandoning their home world and becoming confused as non-klingons. In fact, they're the strongest/toughest/most direct of the three. The TOS Klinks were the craftiest, and the TNG klingons were the most macho but least subtle.

Point being all of them are legit klingons because all of them evolved on Quo'nos. They just deny the others exist in this perpetual racial purity struggle to discover whose the most Klingon of them all, and who has the "real" claim to Kahless' legacy, even though all of them are the same religion.

I haven't actually read it myself (yet)

It's good. When I picked it up years ago I thought it was much more interesting take on Klingon culture than what we got on TV.

 

[Rahul]

Quite honestly?
Give them hair. Moustaches. Bushy eyebrows. Shoulder belts. And for godssake some real, original D7-spaceships to fly.

And I'll be as happy as a chipmunk.
Their update otherwise really isn't too bad. Yeah, they could make it a bit sleeker for the actors. But the only problem with it really is that they ditched ALL the traditional klingon design elements. Which is baffling to be honest. But with them added back in, their new ridges and full-face masks aren't bad. Not perfect. But certainly acceptable.

 

[Phil123]

The thing I struggled most with the DISCO Klingons was their hands. I get that they wanted to make them not look human, but the animal claw style hand/fingernail has been done many times in many shows and has never looked any good.

 

[Terok Nor]

It's not that the Disco Klingon make-up is bad. It's just not Klingon enough. If they were brand new aliens I believe they'd be a lot more accepted and their storyline would have been more engaging. Why oh why did the Season One arc have to be about the Klingons? Call the antagonist species something else and you can still tell the same damn story.

 

[Phil123]

Terok Nor - It's a very good point. Not that you can't change things a little, it stops things getting stale, but if you are going to change them so much, just make it someone else. Like Khan in Into Darkness.

 

[.:: TSN ::.]

I've said this before that I think that the fan backlash to the Klingon design was different this time because they really did ditch almost everything that came before. Except for the forehead ridges and pointy teeth, but even those were not an "original" Klingon characteristic. All the previous changes have been updates that have only added to the previous design without losing anything significant.

 

[Tuskin38]

Their noses are also from DS9 era version of the Klingon makeup.

Worf and Martok both had extra skin flaps above their nostrils. DSC exaggerated that feature.

According to that Trek Movie article, the bald Klingons was also something Bryan Fuller asked for. Jeeze it seems almost every visual change people hate came from Fuller’s orders.

 

[INACTIVERedDwarf]

@grendelsbayne - As a lifelong Star Wars fan, I loved The Last Jedi. I was really surprised by the hate for it. Philosophically, I felt it was closer to the spirit of Star Wars than most films in the series. From Luke's explanation that The Force belongs to no-one and that it is vanity to think the light in the world will die without the Jedi, which I felt was keeping to the spirituality in Empire Strikes Back, to the battle in the throne room resembling the Japanese samurai films that inspired Star Wars.

 

[.:: TSN ::.]

Their noses are also from DS9 era version of the Klingon makeup.

Worf and Martok both had extra skin flaps above their nostrils. DSC exaggerated that feature.

According to that Trek Movie article, the bald Klingons was also something Bryan Fuller asked for. Jeeze it seems almost every visual change people hate came from Fuller’s orders.

Well, Fuller did want more colorful uniforms instead of all blues. So you can't blame him for everything.

 

[eschaton]

Worf and Martok both had extra skin flaps above their nostrils. DSC exaggerated that feature.

No, they had ridges which continued down their noses. it wasn't really even a hint of four nostrils.

 

[Tuskin38]

No, they had ridges which continued down their noses. it wasn't really even a hint of four nostrils.

The DSC ones don’t have four nostrils either.

 

[Mach5]

Quite honestly?
Give them hair. Moustaches. Bushy eyebrows. Shoulder belts.

Glenn Hetrick hinted that hair is making a comeback. Bald Klingons were (IIRC) Bryan Fuller's idea, and with him out, some additional possibilities are opening up.

And for godssake some real, original D7-spaceships to fly.

Setting aside the fact that there's no such thing as a *real* D7 spaceship, I second this. The Discovery version of D7 was one of the shittiest looking ships on the show, and I'd love seeing an updated version of the classic design. These new Klingon ships have this steampunk thing going on, which isn't inherently terrible, but I feel like it would work better as an addition to the classic concepts. So, a fairly recognizable D7 with a mild steampunk twist would be quite nice, if done right.

 

[Ridcully]

And soon we are back to same old same old.....and boredom kicks in...but the "fans" are happy again....

 

[Tuskin38]

And soon we are back to same old same old.....and boredom kicks in...but the "fans" are happy again....

What? I don’t know what you’re trying to say.

 

[Ridcully]

...well never mind...soon it will be bland and filled with superficial "cleverness", and sprinkle some Shakespearian quotes around and such.....and the growth of the human mind....postive thinking while the sun comes crashing down.....happy idiocy...bah!

 

[eschaton]

What? I don’t know what you’re trying to say.

I presume that Discovery is reacting to fan criticism by making the show more and more similar to what came before rather than striking out and doing something new.

I mean, it has unquestionably been doing this to some degree. They have told us more time will be spent on the bridge this season. We're getting some sort of chief engineer. We're supposed to be getting more of the Trek sense of optimism and wonder. It remains to be seen if this just comes across as warmed over Berman Trek though. I'll hazard a guess and say no.

 

[Tuskin38]

...well never mind...soon it will be bland and filled with superficial "cleverness", and sprinkle some Shakespearian quotes around and such.....and the growth of the human mind....postive thinking while the sun comes crashing down.....happy idiocy...bah!

...what? Could you repeat that in proper English?

 

[Ridcully]

Yeah........

 

[Tuskin38]

I presume that Discovery is reacting to fan criticism by making the show more and more similar to what came before rather than striking out and doing something new.

It’s a prequel, shouldn’t that be the goal? Especially one so close to the next series in the timeline.

Responding to fan feedback is a good thing, as long as they don’t take it too far.