Kelvin Timeline all but confirmed

[Crazy Eddie]

if you are a fan of the look of JJ Trek then you logically should be agreeing with what I am saying, not looking for things to create conflict over.

I am a fan of the story lines and characters of Star Trek, especially of TOS and the Kelvinverse movies. The visuals are just the icing on the cake.

That's actually, believe it or not, where I disagree with you. It's tempting to think that the "old stuff" was the best it ever was and they should go back to what they did before if they want to be successful, but that's not actually true at all. That's how we FEEL about the old stuff, and how we FELT when we first watched it. The new productions aren't supposed to evoke old feelings, they're supposed to produce that same reaction -- wonder, empathy, understanding, introspection and imagination -- in a totally new story in a totally new way. Which, ironically, is exactly what it was like to watch Star Trek for the FIRST time before you had any preconceptions about what you expected to see and what it was "supposed" to be like.

That's what happens when you love something: you constantly discover what it IS, not painstakingly compare it to what it used to be.

 

[The Rock]

I actually think the show looks really cool and I can't wait to watch it. I'm just not convinced it takes place in the prime timeline.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

The Cushing movies are most definitely seperate. They have discussed the invasions. Again there have been plenty of lines to that explain stuff in Dr. who. In fact part of the invasion you speak of was wiped from the continuity. I forgot what ep eluded to things being wiped. It's been a while. Never said who Continuity was perfect but it most certainly does respect what came before better than current Trek does with its visual Continuity.

And AGAIN I and many others are not saying it has to be stuck in THE TOS look. Sfx, ship designs etc..need a subtle updates. But there still is no way Visually discovery fits in with the cage and TOS. There is no way to reconcile it. Again a uniform closer to the ones used in Abrahms trek but with the cage colors. A more linear interior design. Klingons didn't have to be changed. ST:ENT used both smoothy and bumpy versions to good effect. Now we have a third look to deal with. The other Trek series have reinforced the look of TOS as part of continuity. This show is close enough to that time that they should have had some visual cues. A yellow shirt is not 1960's, for instance. They could have done a contemporary look based on TOS but chose not to and I think it's gonna hurt them. They should have done a show post voyager and moved it forward. This will probably be the shortest live action Trek series. I have no doubt....

Couple of points.

First, Doctor Who is a poor comparison. The only real continuity it has to worry about is the lineage of the Doctors and noting past characters and events. But that's about it. The look and feel of the TARDIS constantly changes and it's not really credible to say that show looks and feels like it did in the Hartnell days, because it doesn't - even if it can introduce the old aesthetic occasionallt for special episodes. Trek, in comparison, has a much richer, structured, intricate linear universe so the task facing the makers of new Trek is always going to be a much greater challenge.

Secondly, as I said in the main thread, I think there in theory can be explanations for things. I disagree with you on the look. The all blue uniforms contain obvious design hallmarks of Archer's uniforms, the ship is a design extension of the NX-01 in terms of lineage (and as a consequence looks like as precursor to TNG era's Akira class), the bridge is not too far behind Archer's in terms of being darker, smaller and more cramp, the communicators and tricorders fit happily in between ENT and TOS and so it is only really the Klingons that make you wonder what is in their minds, and to be honest, even the look of the Klingons is not so far off base than an explanation can't be given. Plus there's no reason to assume that every Starfleet ship wore The Cage style uniforms.ten years before TOS. Hell, there is even no reason not to assume that they will, as the show goes on, find ways to hint at the TOS aesthetic more and more. I mean, let's be honest here, despite some claiming to the contrary, the NX-01 and much of the look of ENT in general was already more futuristic than TOS, and it makes me laugh how people, 16 years later, now look at it with rose tinted glasses and fully accept it as part of canon - because the complaining back in 2000/2001 was very similar. Why TNG Klingons? Why is there an earlier Enterprise? Why are the communicators smaller? Why are the Klingon shops more advanced. And so on and so forth. We've been here before.

 

[DigificWriter]

Calm down. I never said I wasn't gonna watch it. I just said I don't believe it's set in the prime timeline, despite what the producers have said. If that makes me an idiot then so be it.

What you believe is irrelevant. There are certain people out there who believe that there's such a thing as "alternative facts", but that doesn't make their belief correct.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

I am a fan of the story lines and characters of Star Trek, especially of TOS and the Kelvinverse movies. The visuals are just the icing on the cake.

That's actually, believe it or not, where I disagree with you. It's tempting to think that the "old stuff" was the best it ever was and they should go back to what they did before if they want to be successful, but that's not actually true at all. That's how we FEEL about the old stuff, and how we FELT when we first watched it. The new productions aren't supposed to evoke old feelings, they're supposed to produce that same reaction -- wonder, empathy, understanding, introspection and imagination -- in a totally new story in a totally new way. Which, ironically, is exactly what it was like to watch Star Trek for the FIRST time before you had any preconceptions about what you expected to see and what it was "supposed" to be like.

That's what happens when you love something: you constantly discover what it IS, not painstakingly compare it to what it used to be.

I think you need to go back and read my post again, because you're arguing against a position contrary to my own. What I clearly said is that the stories come first and the rest is second, so I am basically saying exactly what you just said.

I swear some people just look for argument.

 

[Classic_Colin]

ENTERPRISE is implied to be cutting edge?

Nope. Never. Not even once. The first time any mention is made even CLOSE to that is TMP, when Scotty talks about the crew having to get adjusted to "all that new equipment."


Discovery isn't Constitution class.

Then again, it's kind of funny that these are supposed to be the exact same room just a couple of weeks apart:

I'm thinking Star Trek is more like Doctor Who than I thought.

Uh...why is the Enterprise out on the frontlines for a five-year mission of the unexplored galaxy if it was an antiquated vessel by the mid-2260s. Why do TOS Starbase rosters only delineate Constitition Class ships? Clearly, the Enterprise is well over 12 years old judging by Spock's tenure with Pike, but it certainly wasn't an outmoded ship.

I, personally, find all the motion picture series refits and (especially the) uniform changes to have been absurd, but they are not the subject at hand, and neither is Doctor Who.

 

[The Rock]

What you believe is irrelevant. There are certain people out there who believe that there's such a thing as "alternative facts", but that doesn't make their belief correct.

I didn't vote for Trump.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I think you need to go back and read my post again, because you're arguing against a position contrary to my own. What I clearly said is that the stories come first and the rest is second...

And I'm saying the STORIES are the thing I liked most about the Kelvinverse films, along with the characterizations.

So I'm calling out this one:

To be honest if it can do that and use that as a way to get in people who otherwise wouldn't think about Trek's humanist stories then that's fine with me. I was always willing to overlook the reboot quality of JJ Trek of they told good, intelligent stories, and while Abrams let me down on that for the most part, I think the TV format will hopefully fix that problem for me.

Well, ST09 and STB were definitely grounded, humanist stories with a point to make. So was STID, to a lesser extent, though it did so a lot more clumsily. Story quality and character growth in all three films was the big part of what pulled me into them in the first place and kept me watching.

So it sounds like you're complaining that the Kelvinverse movies "dumbed down" their storylines to be accessible to a broader fanbase; if that's not what you meant, maybe you should rephrase?

 

[DigificWriter]

I didn't vote for Trump.

And that is also irrelevant. The point is that you can disbelieve that DSC is set in the Prime Timeline all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that you're wrong.

 

[RAMA]

If it was half as good as the amazing Kelvinverse that revived trek, then we'd be really lucky. However, it is its own animal and looks to stand on its own feet.

 

[The Rock]

And that is also irrelevant. The point is that you can disbelieve that DSC is set in the Prime Timeline all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that you're wrong.

If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But I'm also going to watch the show, and nothing is going to change that.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Uh...why is the Enterprise out on the frontlines for a five-year mission of the unexplored galaxy if it was an antiquated vessel by the mid-2260s.

Possible explanation: "five year missions" are the standard deployment for obsolete vessels at a time when all their newer ships were off running 15 or 20 year missions to god-knows-where.

I, personally, find all the motion picture series refits and (especially the) uniform changes to have been absurd, but they are not the subject at hand, and neither is Doctor Who.

We're talking about the made-up concept of "visual continuity", yes? Well "visual continuity" includes the changes from TOS to TMP, a change that Decker suggests takes less than three years. So one of two things is at work here: either the Enterprise ALWAYS looked like that (retcon) or Starfleet just rams total revisions of style and technology down the throats of its entire fleet every couple of years with no explanation and everyone just does it because reasons. So Discovery could literally pull into space dock in the middle of season 2 and pull out again looking exactly like TOS fifteen minutes later and nobody would be the wiser.

 

[Amaris]

I never said that it not being in the prime timeline was a bad thing. I don't mind a reboot at all. You're acting as if I'm mad that I don't think it's set in the prime timeline.

I didn't say you did. All I'm saying is that you are drawing a hell of a lot from a two minute trailer, and are disregarding what has been stated by the showrunners.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

And I'm saying the STORIES are the thing I liked most about the Kelvinverse films, along with the characterizations.

So I'm calling out this one:

Well, ST09 and STB were definitely grounded, humanist stories with a point to make. So was STID, to a lesser extent, though it did so a lot more clumsily. Story quality and character growth in all three films was the big part of what pulled me into them in the first place and kept me watching.

So it sounds like you're complaining that the Kelvinverse movies "dumbed down" their storylines to be accessible to a broader fanbase; if that's not what you meant, maybe you should rephrase?

Nothing to rephrase. The very fact that you concede that STID was "clumsy" says it all. I have to say that I disagree entirely in your idea of JJ Trek being humanist. They are just actions films, and while I liked STB, all three movies are little more than bad guy of the week revenge capers. The best Trek stories do not rely on such tropes (with the exception of TWOK). Still, thank you for proving that you are primarily out to nitpick and argue, but I'm afraid I won't be biting just because you want to have a fight. It was quite clear that the overall spirit of my post was to say that as long as the stories are good for Discovery the aesthetic of the show is secondary. I do not desire, nor did I intend for, a critical review of my opinion of the JJTrek movies. I am sick of fans telling me why I must like them. I do not like them for the most part and I do not find them particularly stimulating. That is my right and my reference to them was simply to say that I personally as a fan, and some, not all, others felt the stories weren't good enough and had they been then that was all it would have likely taken to change my, and their, opinion. Frankly I couldn't give two hoots whether or not you are a fan who thinks the JJTrek stories are deep and intelligent as it is totally irrelevant to the overall point, which, again, is that Trek lives and dies on it's stories above all else - a sentiment that no credible fan should disagree with, irrespective of their view of the individual merits of particular past stories.

See the overriding point being made, rather than cherry picking bits of what people say to distort their position.

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

I'm trying not to expect anything in particular from the show but I must admit that visually I thought they would want to establish more of a "third way" separate from both prime and Kelvin - maybe like an updated Wrath of Khan - but anyway until we see a full episode with music and without the fast cuts we can't judge.

 

[Freman]

If this is the Prime timeline, then what the hell is up with those Klingons? Would it have been so hard for them to use the actual Prime Klingon makeup?

Turned right off this series now. Dammit.

 

[The Rock]

I didn't say you did. All I'm saying is that you are drawing a hell of a lot from a two minute trailer, and are disregarding what has been stated by the showrunners.

And that is also irrelevant. The point is that you can disbelieve that DSC is set in the Prime Timeline all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that you're wrong.

*hugs both of you* Cheers.

 

[Noname Given]

If this is the Prime timeline, then what the hell is up with those Klingons? Would it have been so hard for them to use the actual Prime Klingon makeup?

Turned right off this series now. Dammit.

Which version of Klingon makeup would you prefer? (link)

 

[RAMA]

If this is the Prime timeline, then what the hell is up with those Klingons? Would it have been so hard for them to use the actual Prime Klingon makeup?

Turned right off this series now. Dammit.

reimagining®

 

[Amaris]

If this is the Prime timeline, then what the hell is up with those Klingons? Would it have been so hard for them to use the actual Prime Klingon makeup?

Turned right off this series now. Dammit.

God, Gene would be so pissed if he saw us change the look of the Klingons.