Jennifer Lien

[Guy Gardener]

A very long lived species (Not Vulcans) should have a slower maturation rate (Trelane might not be a Q.) that their age of consent might be some where near their 80th or 90th birthday, that it might be, should be considered some sort of child molestation to advance upon such a being who is in their 70s if their physical and mental maturity is more akin to a 12 year old.

Kes could have been so out of touch with how SLOWLY Naomi was going to grow up that she could have made/sewed Naomi's wardrobe before she left... "No seriously Sam, she's 2 weeks old, why isn't your kid talking yet?"

 

[exodus]

I never said Neelix's relationship with Kes wasn't

It was.

Much more believable as a father/daughter dynamic.

I don't think Neelix & Kes were having sex.

They didn't share quarters.
I think it was an implication they were a couple that aren't sexually active.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I have to rewatch Elogium, you know the one where she actually told him to smurf her because her biological clock was exploding... maybe she's like bitches (or Vulcans) who only have sex during a set season, or maybe she's like a black groom or a butterfly who only does it the once. which adding those too thoughts together means some where in her third year.

Paris was certainly after a sexual relationship in Paturation, and if Neelix was standing in his way when he was just offering a middle school relationship, it was petty of him, and stupid when he could have stopped Paris in his tracks by explaining that the little blonde girl does not put out.

Why then was Neelix so jealous? Was it because if she didn't put out with him he suspected that she had to find a release with someone else? How fair is that? Wasn't he good enough for her? Maybe he was the one not putting out which is why he didn't assume her celibacy was an absolute because it never was.

Besides thre's also the theory that her time as a slave girl in the kazon settlement might have turned her off having sex ever again and has nothing to do with her age or her breeding cycle.

 

[Admiral Shran]

maybe she's like bitches (or Vulcans) who only have sex during a set season

Vulcans don't have sex only during the pon farr. It's just that they MUST have it then.

Anyways, if we're bringing up how disturbing the Kes-Neelix relationship was, then the blame rests on Kes. By the time she broke it off, in Warlord, she was over three years old (or in Human terms, 50) and she was having a relationship with a man who had the mind of a toddler.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Rodenberry disagrees with you in the motion picture adaptation, but I've gone either or, since there are arguments on both fronts if you believe that "Enterprise" actually happened.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

This is my theory:

Neelix was in love with Kes and formed a strong bond with her. However because of her innocence he kept that bond romantic but not sexual, waiting until Kes was ready to advance the relationship. Like many kind hearted "nice" guys he waited too long and by the time she was ready for a mature relationship she had completely outgrown him. It's like that sweet girl at high school that hangs out with the nerdy fellow and they are such good friends and then BOOM she's going out with some dude on the football team and the nerdy fellow is left with a broken heart.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Rodenberry disagrees with you in the motion picture adaptation, but I've gone either or, since there are arguments on both fronts if you believe that "Enterprise" actually happened.

Well, I do believe it happened.

But even if I didn't - I honestly don't care what Roddenberry had to say. From on-screen evidence I believe that the pon farr is only a mandatory mating season, not the only time they mate.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

As soon as Spock suffered any loss of emotional control it was WOMEN, WOMEN he wanted.

 

[Guy Gardener]

This is my theory:

Neelix was in love with Kes and formed a strong bond with her. However because of her innocence he kept that bond romantic but not sexual, waiting until Kes was ready to advance the relationship. Like many kind hearted "nice" guys he waited too long and by the time she was ready for a mature relationship she had completely outgrown him. It's like that sweet girl at high school that hangs out with the nerdy fellow and they are such good friends and then BOOM she's going out with some dude on the football team and the nerdy fellow is left with a broken heart.

That's Pretty in Pink!

Poor John Cryer, always the Ducky never the Sheen.

 

[exodus]

This is my theory:

Neelix was in love with Kes and formed a strong bond with her. However because of her innocence he kept that bond romantic but not sexual, waiting until Kes was ready to advance the relationship. Like many kind hearted "nice" guys he waited too long and by the time she was ready for a mature relationship she had completely outgrown him. It's like that sweet girl at high school that hangs out with the nerdy fellow and they are such good friends and then BOOM she's going out with some dude on the football team and the nerdy fellow is left with a broken heart.

Bravo.

 

[Lynx]

You're right about that.

But if you study history, then you'll know that there have been many leaders and people in charge who have built up something good, like a society or a company and then they have ruined everything because of some stupid decisions.

And history will remember them, not for what they did build up but for what they ruined.

This is just a bait and switch tactic to avoid the issue that you flip-flop within your own argument.
History isn't going to paint Berman or Braga in any bad light and surely not due to you're disatisfaction over one character. With Berman's help, Trek under his watch became more marketable than it's ever been.
Kes wouldn't have even been made into an action figure had it not been for those you wished unemployment on. The fact that Trek just had a successful movie shows that Trek hasn't been ruined for the general mass audience.

I'm not so sure about the truth in that statement.

This statement is as hypocritical as it is laugh at loud funny due to such irony.

This has nothing to do with tactic or any "flip-flop into my own argument".

As a long-time Trek fan, I'm sure that you're aware of the fact that B&B aren't that popular among Trek fans mostly because many fans think that they did screw up a good thing.

When it comes to Voyager, they did annoy many fans of the show for different things. "Fury", C/7, the whole "Endgame" senario etc. That's the reason why the Voyager fans are a split-up community. Many fans prefer certain parts of the show but not all of it.

And I won't go into "Enterprise" or "Nemesis" here.

In fact, Star Trek started to go down during B&B's later seasons in charge and it hasn't recovered yet.

teacake wrote:

This is my theory:

Neelix was in love with Kes and formed a strong bond with her. However because of her innocence he kept that bond romantic but not sexual, waiting until Kes was ready to advance the relationship. Like many kind hearted "nice" guys he waited too long and by the time she was ready for a mature relationship she had completely outgrown him. It's like that sweet girl at high school that hangs out with the nerdy fellow and they are such good friends and then BOOM she's going out with some dude on the football team and the nerdy fellow is left with a broken heart.

I think that's the truth about their relationship.

 

[lurok]

You're right about that.

But if you study history, then you'll know that there have been many leaders and people in charge who have built up something good, like a society or a company and then they have ruined everything because of some stupid decisions.

And history will remember them, not for what they did build up but for what they ruined.

This is just a bait and switch tactic to avoid the issue that you flip-flop within your own argument.
History isn't going to paint Berman or Braga in any bad light and surely not due to you're disatisfaction over one character. With Berman's help, Trek under his watch became more marketable than it's ever been.
Kes wouldn't have even been made into an action figure had it not been for those you wished unemployment on. The fact that Trek just had a successful movie shows that Trek hasn't been ruined for the general mass audience.



This statement is as hypocritical as it is laugh at loud funny due to such irony.

This has nothing to do with tactic or any "flip-flop into my own argument".

As a long-time Trek fan, I'm sure that you're aware of the fact that B&B aren't that popular among Trek fans mostly because many fans think that they did screw up a good thing.

When it comes to Voyager, they did annoy many fans of the show for different things. "Fury", C/7, the whole "Endgame" senario etc. That's the reason why the Voyager fans are a split-up community. Many fans prefer certain parts of the show but not all of it.

And I won't go into "Enterprise" or "Nemesis" here.

In fact, Star Trek started to go down during B&B's later seasons in charge and it hasn't recovered yet.

teacake wrote:

This is my theory:

Neelix was in love with Kes and formed a strong bond with her. However because of her innocence he kept that bond romantic but not sexual, waiting until Kes was ready to advance the relationship. Like many kind hearted "nice" guys he waited too long and by the time she was ready for a mature relationship she had completely outgrown him. It's like that sweet girl at high school that hangs out with the nerdy fellow and they are such good friends and then BOOM she's going out with some dude on the football team and the nerdy fellow is left with a broken heart.

I think that's the truth about their relationship.

Nice to find kindred spirits. I think teacake is spot-on re: Kes in terms of VOY narrative, and Lynx re: what B&B did to trek. Just recently watched ENT from start to finish for first time and couldn't believe what they did to finale.

As for Lien, great voice and great actress. Tragic waste. God knows what they could have done with her in seasons 4-7, even if Seven had still come on board.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The finale for Enterprise was a left over script from season two Berman dusted off at the last minute with no respect for the hard work everyone else that worked for a living had constructed over the last year.

 

[exodus]

As a long-time Trek fan, I'm sure that you're aware of the fact that B&B aren't that popular among Trek fans mostly because many fans think that they did screw up a good thing.

I'm also aware fans don't have any idea what's it's like to be an executive producer of a TV series or what it takes to keep one running. Not to mention that die hard fans are just a fraction of the world wide mass audience that watches Trek. So as Rick Berman correctly said: "We listen closely to fan feedback but they don't control the show." So fans need to get over the fact that Trek isn't made exclusively for them. The fact that the "fans" still don't understand Berman's track record of successes with Trek greatly out number the bad just cements the fact they have no idea what Berman does or how his job works.

When it comes to Voyager, they did annoy many fans of the show for different things. "Fury", C/7, the whole "Endgame" senario etc. That's the reason why the Voyager fans are a split-up community. Many fans prefer certain parts of the show but not all of it.

....and some fans didn't like endings to Seinfeld or LOST either.
Oh well, you can't please everybody.
Maybe you prefer no Voyager at all, then we'd never have to talk about Kes or Jen Lien at all?

In fact, Star Trek started to go down during B&B's later seasons in charge and it hasn't recovered yet.

J.J Abrams, Paramount and the millions that watched the last film & then bought the DVD & Blu-rays disagree.
Besides Norman Lear, there isn't series to date where every spin off from the original show was a success. Again, would you prefer no Voyager at all?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sometimes quantity over quality is better.

(forgive my use of time. a tv show ='s 40 minutes by this even though TNG were 45 minutes and Enterprise were 39 minutes long after you removed the shitty song at the beginning and the ads. Hells, Kirks adventures were 50 minutes. And I'm saying that a movie is a flat 1.5 hours even if it isn't.)

It's been 6 years almost since Enterprise finished, so lets go back in 6's...

2006 - 2011 = one movie = 1.5 hours.

2005 - 2000 - 52 episodes of Voyager and 97 episodes of Enterprise and one movie = 101 hours.

1999 - 1994 118 episodes of Voyager, 154 episodes of DS9, 26 episodes of tng, 3 movies = 196 and a half hours.

1993 - 1988 124 episodes of TNG, 19 episodes of ds9 plus 2 movies = 98 hours 20 minutes.

1987 - 1982 = 26 episodes of tng, plus 3 movies = 21.8 hours.

Bad science fiction is better than ALMOST no science fiction.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I do enjoy the sheer quantity.

The only thing that made me more of an avid Trek fan over an SW fan was the quantity.

 

[exodus]

I do enjoy the sheer quantity.

The only thing that made me more of an avid Trek fan over an SW fan was the quantity.

I still like SW more.

 

[Guy Gardener]

And if Berman had spent 200 million dollars an episode for Voyager maybe all your gushing would be justified.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Whose gushing? I don't care about sfx.

And I don't compare my love of Trek to my love of SW.. I just threw myself into one fandom over the other and quantity had something to do with that, especially since I found the SW EU indigestible.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Talking to Exodus, we've been at it hammer and tongs for half a decade. We have diametrically opposing philosophies for the most part.