Jennifer Lien

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Kes could have been an awesome character if they'd given her a bit of an edge. "Warlord" more than shows Lien would've been up to it.

Unfortunately, the Kes we got was amazingly bland. Meek, even.

...and that scream!


Seven of Nine had an edge. Yeah, she wore the tight suit and had an insane rack, but her combination of a dominant personality and being severely fucked up made for a super character.

I completely agree with everything in this post.

 

[Warp Coil]

Television shows have budgetary constraints. They're only given so much money. When the producers decided to introduce a new series regular, they were forced to remove an existing cast member. I really don't think they could afford to pay 10 series regulars. So the decision to fire someone was budgetary more than anything else. As for who the producers chose to cut, that was likely much more political. I'm sure the producers had certain favorite characters that they didn't want to lose. I'm sure the writers also had their favorites. The studio and the network threw in their two cents, as well, I'm sure. The popular rumor is that Garrett Wang was singled out to get the axe. Harry Kim's fate was pretty much sealed when he gets critically injured in "Scorpion, part 1" and he could have very easily died in the season 4 premiere. However, the show and the actor were given a publicity boost when Wang was named one of People Magazine's most beautiful people of the year. I'm sure the studio and the network were hard pressed to keep him on the show for that very reason. Jennifer Lien was the runner-up and so ultimately she was let go, and Jeri Ryan was brought in as Seven of Nine.

It's the nature of the business, I suppose. I don't think it was the right decision, but it's so far in the past now that there isn't too much point in dwelling on it. I think that the character of Kes was poorly developed in her 3 seasons on the show. They could have done more with her. Her unique Ocampan abilities and her short life span could have made for some really dramatic and interesting episodes (particularly towards the end of the series... the ship is getting closer to earth but Kes is getting closer and closer to death). I really enjoyed Kes's relationship with The Doctor and I think it would have been nice if it turned romantic (the two were definitely quite affectionate towards one another, and The Doctor would be a much better match for her than Neelix ever was).

Personally, if I had been in charge, I would have kept Kes around. There are a couple of ways this could have been accomplished:

Option 1 - get rid of another cast member. Harry Kim was the obvious choice, but for political/marketing reasons, Garrett was given a reprieve. I think Neelix should have been the next in line. By the 4th season, his character was not necessary. He served no vital function. He was originally brought aboard to be a guide for Janeway and the crew, to help them navigate through the Delta quadrant. But at this point in their journey, they had moved beyond the region of space where Neelix could be helpful. The character was relegated to comic relief and he didn't do much to add to the series. I think the only reason he remained on the show was that he was the "weird alien". Every Trek series seems to want one really odd alien with a lot of makeup and/or prosthetics. TNG had Worf. DS9 had Quark and Odo. VOY had Neelix. (And ENT would go on to have Phlox).

Option 2 - bump Jennifer Lien (or another cast member, like Ethan Phillips) to recurring. They don't have to appear in every episode. They don't get paid like a series regular. But they can still remain with the series and contribute several times per season. DS9 did this quite successfully with their broad range of recurring characters, like Nog, Rom, Dukat, etc. There is no reason why Jennifer Lien had to completely leave the series. Just simply agree to use her in half the episodes instead of all 26. She can still remain with the show and the character of Kes can be used on an as-needed basis. This way she can still develop and grow.

I think that introducing Seven of Nine was a smart move. She definitely injected some energy into the series, and she was a welcome addition to the cast. Despite her appearance and being written off as a "Borg Babe", she was actually an interesting character and had more going on for her than her catsuit. So I don't think it was a foolish decision to introduce a new character in season 4. Firing Jennifer Lien was unfortunate, and didn't need to happen, but sadly that's how things work.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

One minute she's a year old girl from a closed society that knows nothing of the "world", the next she giving out advice and has wisdom of someone that's experance life. She's never seen a starship ever, yet she acted like Voyager was nothing new too her. They didn't know how to write for her because they thenselves could gauge how they wanted her to act. Was she a child or an adult? If they couldn't figure it out, they couldn't successfully show her growing up. It clearly shows they messed up on her execution.

They did create the character, then they should have had a plan for her. Otherwise they weren't doing their job.

In your statement, you focus too much on that "one year" thing. Kes was in reality about 18-25 years old. The Ocampa did seem to have a lot of wisdom and certainly Kes had a wisdom of an 18-25 year old Ocampa.

Though I have never been a Kes fan I will say I do think her acting like a wise adult at the age of two was a POSITIVE. The Ocampans only live 9 years, they don't have a decade to piss around being kids or another decade to piss around being adolescents. I thought the way she adapted very quick and learned at a much faster rate than humans was excellent and actually made me think about the Ocampa. I knew she would tire quickly of Neelix because a year passes and he's one year older, which is meaningless. But for her a year is like a decade or more.. in that year she has been able to learn and retain similar to what a human could in a decade. She has gone through the emotional growth that a human might in a decade. Now of course it is not a perfect comparison because humans and Ocampans are different species but in order for the Ocampans to be born, grow to adulthood, form relationships, learn enough to run and progress as a society and parent the next generation they cannot be children at the age of 2. They have to have enormous capacity for learning and growth.

 

[exodus]

Television shows have budgetary constraints. They're only given so much money. When the producers decided to introduce a new series regular, they were forced to remove an existing cast member. I really don't think they could afford to pay 10 series regulars. So the decision to fire someone was budgetary more than anything else. As for who the producers chose to cut, that was likely much more political. I'm sure the producers had certain favorite characters that they didn't want to lose. I'm sure the writers also had their favorites. The studio and the network threw in their two cents, as well, I'm sure. The popular rumor is that Garrett Wang was singled out to get the axe. Harry Kim's fate was pretty much sealed when he gets critically injured in "Scorpion, part 1" and he could have very easily died in the season 4 premiere. However, the show and the actor were given a publicity boost when Wang was named one of People Magazine's most beautiful people of the year. I'm sure the studio and the network were hard pressed to keep him on the show for that very reason. Jennifer Lien was the runner-up and so ultimately she was let go, and Jeri Ryan was brought in as Seven of Nine.

It's the nature of the business, I suppose. I don't think it was the right decision, but it's so far in the past now that there isn't too much point in dwelling on it. I think that the character of Kes was poorly developed in her 3 seasons on the show. They could have done more with her. Her unique Ocampan abilities and her short life span could have made for some really dramatic and interesting episodes (particularly towards the end of the series... the ship is getting closer to earth but Kes is getting closer and closer to death). I really enjoyed Kes's relationship with The Doctor and I think it would have been nice if it turned romantic (the two were definitely quite affectionate towards one another, and The Doctor would be a much better match for her than Neelix ever was).

Personally, if I had been in charge, I would have kept Kes around. There are a couple of ways this could have been accomplished:

Option 1 - get rid of another cast member. Harry Kim was the obvious choice, but for political/marketing reasons, Garrett was given a reprieve. I think Neelix should have been the next in line. By the 4th season, his character was not necessary. He served no vital function. He was originally brought aboard to be a guide for Janeway and the crew, to help them navigate through the Delta quadrant. But at this point in their journey, they had moved beyond the region of space where Neelix could be helpful. The character was relegated to comic relief and he didn't do much to add to the series. I think the only reason he remained on the show was that he was the "weird alien". Every Trek series seems to want one really odd alien with a lot of makeup and/or prosthetics. TNG had Worf. DS9 had Quark and Odo. VOY had Neelix. (And ENT would go on to have Phlox).

Option 2 - bump Jennifer Lien (or another cast member, like Ethan Phillips) to recurring. They don't have to appear in every episode. They don't get paid like a series regular. But they can still remain with the series and contribute several times per season. DS9 did this quite successfully with their broad range of recurring characters, like Nog, Rom, Dukat, etc. There is no reason why Jennifer Lien had to completely leave the series. Just simply agree to use her in half the episodes instead of all 26. She can still remain with the show and the character of Kes can be used on an as-needed basis. This way she can still develop and grow.

I think that introducing Seven of Nine was a smart move. She definitely injected some energy into the series, and she was a welcome addition to the cast. Despite her appearance and being written off as a "Borg Babe", she was actually an interesting character and had more going on for her than her catsuit. So I don't think it was a foolish decision to introduce a new character in season 4. Firing Jennifer Lien was unfortunate, and didn't need to happen, but sadly that's how things work.

Agree with all you said except Option 2.
You can't drop a cast regular to reacurring and change their pay rate. All that is negotiated in advance with each actors agent. Especially in this situation. You started off paying Lien XXX amount of dollars, why should she take a pay cut to stay on a show when she can go to another show or film and get paid her old salary or more? No agent is going to encourage their client to take a pay cut because that's their profit margin too.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I really enjoyed Kes's relationship with The Doctor and I think it would have been nice if it turned romantic (the two were definitely quite affectionate towards one another, and The Doctor would be a much better match for her than Neelix ever was).

I would have paid to see that! The Doctor is so competitive, I wonder if he would have been kept on his toes by Kes's learning abilities. I can also hear The Doctor quipping at Neelix that "the better man won" in an offhand way and Neelix being apoplectic over this. A little soap opera with The Doctor as the center player would have been quite amusing.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Unfortunately, the Kes we got was amazingly bland. Meek, even.

Why does every female main character in Trek have to be gung-ho? "Meek" was a nice change of pace. Now if only we had gotten a male main character like Barclay - I would have loved that.

 

[froot]

I always thought Kes was the embodiment of the Trekkian spirit of exploration. I don't think she was meek, really. She spoke her mind when she felt like it (and melted faces for giggles on occasion.) She was just gentle.

I'd have to go with Admiral Shran on this one.

 

[antiquityscion]

I really enjoyed Kes's relationship with The Doctor and I think it would have been nice if it turned romantic (the two were definitely quite affectionate towards one another, and The Doctor would be a much better match for her than Neelix ever was).

I would have paid to see that! The Doctor is so competitive, I wonder if he would have been kept on his toes by Kes's learning abilities. I can also hear The Doctor quipping at Neelix that "the better man won" in an offhand way and Neelix being apoplectic over this. A little soap opera with The Doctor as the center player would have been quite amusing.

I agree that would have been a good character development for Kes and Doc, on a platonic level. Not so sure on a romantic level. Doc pining after Seven was a little creepy, and I suspect it would have been just as creepy with Kes, too.

I personally would have liked to see the Doctor continue a relationship with Denara Pel. Life Signs was a sweet love story, especially when she goes back to her sick vidiian body, and the Doctor still cares about her. I always thought that was going to go somewhere, like she gets sick again, and he has to transfer her mind to the holo-emitters permanently. She even named him! But as it turned out, I think she only made one more appearance, in Resolutions. And the Doctor pretends like he never met her or ever got a name, after that. Heartbreak. Tear.

 

[exodus]

I agree that would have been a good character development for Kes and Doc, on a platonic level. Not so sure on a romantic level. Doc pining after Seven was a little creepy, and I suspect it would have been just as creepy with Kes, too.

I agree with this completely.
I know Trek is anti-bigotry but the Doc. is still a machine.
It seems dehumanizing having human(iod) having an intimate romantic relationship with a machine. Seven I understand a little because she slightly detached but Kes wasn't. At least not sexually.

I personally would have liked to see the Doctor continue a relationship with Denara Pel. Life Signs was a sweet love story, especially when she goes back to her sick vidiian body, and the Doctor still cares about her. I always thought that was going to go somewhere, like she gets sick again, and he has to transfer her mind to the holo-emitters permanently. She even named him! But as it turned out, I think she only made one more appearance, in Resolutions. And the Doctor pretends like he never met her or ever got a name, after that. Heartbreak. Tear.

Awesome idea.

Unfortunately, the Kes we got was amazingly bland. Meek, even.

Why does every female main character in Trek have to be gung-ho? "Meek" was a nice change of pace. Now if only we had gotten a male main character like Barclay - I would have loved that.

I think I would have turned off Trek forever if they did.
Sorry, no offence meant but if there's any character I hate more than Wesley, it's Lt. Barclay. I can't watch any Voyager ep. with him in it.

 

[Admiral Shran]

So it would be "dehumanizing" for humanoid Kes to be with The Doctor, but not for humanoid Denara Pel?

 

[exodus]

So it would be "dehumanizing" for humanoid Kes to be with The Doctor, but not for humanoid Denara Pel?

I thought we were talking about Pel as a hologram?
That's the scenario described above.

 

[Green Shirt]

Anyways, she was kicked off the show because they didn't want to give Garrett Wang the boot after he was named one of People Magazine's Most Beautiful People.

Damn, that's a helluva crappy reason to get fired.

 

[Admiral Shran]

So it would be "dehumanizing" for humanoid Kes to be with The Doctor, but not for humanoid Denara Pel?

I thought we were talking about Pel as a hologram?
That's the scenario described above.

Ah, okay. I still think it isn't dehumanizing for a humanoid and a hologram to be together. But I see where you're coming from.

 

[exodus]

So it would be "dehumanizing" for humanoid Kes to be with The Doctor, but not for humanoid Denara Pel?

I thought we were talking about Pel as a hologram?
That's the scenario described above.

Ah, okay. I still think it isn't dehumanizing for a humanoid and a hologram to be together. But I see where you're coming from.

Like I said, Trek is meant to be anti-bigotry.
This is just one bridge I haven't crossed over yet.
I'm still on the fence about the Doc. being "real".

 

[BlobVanDam]

I liked the character of Kes, and even though she had that bubbly personality, she was a pretty dull character. Neelix was a better character without her, so was Tom, and the only good dynamic she had going was with the Doctor. Since he had come fairly far by that point, he had a better dynamic with 7 of 9 in the reverse role (which wouldn't have worked without the setup from Kes of course).

I would definitely have preferred that Garrett Wang left the show, because he was dead weight throughout the entire series, while Kes had some good episodes, such as Before and After, and Warlord. But at the same time, I don't think it was a huge loss to the show without her. You don't fire writers because a character isn't working. You either rework the character, or drop them. Not a problem here. It happens all the time in television.

 

[Lord Manitou]

It seems to appear all Ocampans are dinks- besides that, Kes was also a girl and didn't at all feel compatriot to these 'man-woman' issues that possessed and housed each and every episode.

 

[hawk200]

To me Kes was like my little sister.One that you would like to protect.
To do away with her was unthinkable. and sad.
I think that many folks felt the same way.
I wonder if we would feel the same way about her,if she stayed on to the very end.
We will never know.
Thank goodness for the three years that she was on.

 

[exodus]

I think this one of the reasons Voyager and Trek in general can't be a bolder more dramatic show with deep conflict. How can it ever be if you can't even change the cast line up? How can it ever be bold if you have to pamper certain characters due to a small minority of it's audience? Is no character ever supposed to be written off a show? All the folks that start a journey across uncharted and possibly hostile space are ALL supposed to make the trip? I think the fact that people did come and go was one of the few elements that was "real" about the show.

 

[Vinkula]

Kes was one of my favorites. When she left the show, I was like "OMG NOO!". I am glad we got Seven. I like them both so much Kes Rulz.

 

[Lynx]

To me Kes was like my little sister.One that you would like to protect.
To do away with her was unthinkable. and sad.
I think that many folks felt the same way.
I wonder if we would feel the same way about her,if she stayed on to the very end.
We will never know.
Thank goodness for the three years that she was on.

I agree on your statement.

As for the question about how we would have felt about her if she had stayed the whole show, it would have depended on the storyline for the character.

However, she was brilliant during those years she was in the series.

As for the character herself, some posters have stated that she was "dull" or "meek". I disagree on that. I never found her dull in any way. In fact, one of the best things with the character was that she was both a contrast and a complement to more standard Star trek female characters like Janeway and Torres. And Kes could be tough and strong-willed too. Don't forget how she saved the ship when she stood up against the Bothan in "Persistence Of Vision". She was very brave then.

She also saved the ship in "Cold Fire", she defied the Elder Toscat in "Caretaker", not to mention that she actually left the cavse to see the sun which was brave considering the fact that it was unknown territory for the Ocampa.

She saved The Doctor in "The Swarm" and she persuaded Tuvok to go back for Janeway and Chakotay in "Resolutions" and don't forget how she fought Tieran when he had taken control over her in "Warlord".

Kes is nice and friendly but also brave and strong-willed. as such she has more depth and quality than many standard stereotype females in many series.