Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

[MatthiasRussell]

In the Locutus situation, I would have tried to restore Picard.

So why is it wrong to bring back Tuvok and Neelix?
doesn't Locutus represent new life the same as Tuvix?
Isn't restoring Picard killing Locutus just to restore the being he used to be?

For one, Picard wasn't killed and then his parts used to create a new being. In my mind, after the patterns of Neelix and Tuvok failed to rematerialize and were lost, they were dead. If someone finds a way to restore them, great, I'll try it, but not at the expense of the new sentient life that was created. Furthermore, after weeks passed, they SHOULD have been declared dead, if not lost like all other crewman whose signals have been lost over the past couple hundred years.

To me, that is the main difference between what happens to assimilated crewmen and those lost in transporter accidents. Assimilated being were never really killed, they were brainwashed and enslaved. However, after all the years that Annika was gone, I would consider her dead as she was more Borg than human.

On the flip side, I would want a court martial held for Picard due to his action in FC killing a number of his own crewman, especially the ones who weren't fully assimilated yet.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

For me, these two situations confirm to me Janeway is consistent, she chooses to restore the original (and salvageable) owners of the bodies. I can't speak to the S6 Ballard case, as I'm only jsut beginning S4 at this point, but, 7of9 and Tuvix, I think she showed consistency

But the Ballard case shows her to be inconsistent with her principle of the original life form taking precidence. Until you're familiar with that situation, you can't properly judge Janeway on this issue.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

I'll throw in some episodes from other series which some may use to weigh in whether Janeway repected the rights of the individual in keeping with Trek values. I'm curious to see how people think these hold weight for this discussion.

ENT: Similitude (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Similitude_(episode))

TOS: The Enemy Within (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Enemy_Within_(episode))

 

[DonIago]

I'm not sure how "The Enemy Within" is analogous given that in that case both halves would have died without each other.

 

[exodus]

In the Locutus situation, I would have tried to restore Picard.

So why is it wrong to bring back Tuvok and Neelix?
doesn't Locutus represent new life the same as Tuvix?
Isn't restoring Picard killing Locutus just to restore the being he used to be?

For one, Picard wasn't killed and then his parts used to create a new being. In my mind, after the patterns of Neelix and Tuvok failed to rematerialize and were lost, they were dead. If someone finds a way to restore them, great, I'll try it, but not at the expense of the new sentient life that was created. Furthermore, after weeks passed, they SHOULD have been declared dead, if not lost like all other crewman whose signals have been lost over the past couple hundred years.

To me, that is the main difference between what happens to assimilated crewmen and those lost in transporter accidents. Assimilated being were never really killed, they were brainwashed and enslaved. However, after all the years that Annika was gone, I would consider her dead as she was more Borg than human.

On the flip side, I would want a court martial held for Picard due to his action in FC killing a number of his own crewman, especially the ones who weren't fully assimilated yet.

If Borg are part machine/part organic, then Picards parts are being used to create a new being. How could you be willingly try a way to restore them and not take Tuvix life? That's impossible. If Tuvix exists, then so do the patterns of Tuvok and Neelix.
If over time they both are considered dead, then I still
don't see the difference.

I'll throw in some episodes from other series which some may use to weigh in whether Janeway repected the rights of the individual in keeping with Trek values. I'm curious to see how people think these hold weight for this discussion.

ENT: Similitude (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Similitude_(episode))

TOS: The Enemy Within (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Enemy_Within_(episode))

Wasn't Sim a complexly different genus and species?
He wasn't even humanoid, he was a bug mimicing a human.

 

[DonIago]

I'm not sure we're in a position to judge whether a lifeform merits existence on the grounds that it's only "mimicing" a human.

Data and the EMH only mimic humans, but don't have a right to exist?

 

[Sindatur]

For me, these two situations confirm to me Janeway is consistent, she chooses to restore the original (and salvageable) owners of the bodies. I can't speak to the S6 Ballard case, as I'm only jsut beginning S4 at this point, but, 7of9 and Tuvix, I think she showed consistency

But the Ballard case shows her to be inconsistent with her principle of the original life form taking precidence. Until you're familiar with that situation, you can't properly judge Janeway on this issue.

I have clearly stated my judgement is based upon the episodes I've seen (Up to 4.06 over the last couple weeks. I've seen scattered episodes later during first run, but, don't remember details). I believe I'm perfectly qualified to properly judge her consistency in this area, up to that point.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

For me, these two situations confirm to me Janeway is consistent, she chooses to restore the original (and salvageable) owners of the bodies. I can't speak to the S6 Ballard case, as I'm only jsut beginning S4 at this point, but, 7of9 and Tuvix, I think she showed consistency

But the Ballard case shows her to be inconsistent with her principle of the original life form taking precidence. Until you're familiar with that situation, you can't properly judge Janeway on this issue.

I have clearly stated my judgement is based upon the episodes I've seen (Up to 4.06 over the last couple weeks. I've seen scattered episodes later during first run, but, don't remember details). I believe I'm perfectly qualified to properly judge her consistency in this area, up to that point.

Yes, I understand that. However, I'm just saying you can't make a complete and impartial judgement without ALL the evidence. I will be curious to see how you view that episode after having had this discussion.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

I'm not sure how "The Enemy Within" is analogous given that in that case both halves would have died without each other.

I feel the same way. The 2 were going to die anyways. The 2 were also copies of James Kirk as opposed to a new being but they were still new sentient lives with rights to choose for themselves.

Not all of us may agree on how that matter was handled.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

I'll throw in some episodes from other series which some may use to weigh in whether Janeway repected the rights of the individual in keeping with Trek values. I'm curious to see how people think these hold weight for this discussion.

ENT: Similitude (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Similitude_(episode))

TOS: The Enemy Within (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Enemy_Within_(episode))

Wasn't Sim a complexly different genus and species?
He wasn't even humanoid, he was a bug mimicing a human.

Sim was genetically identical to Trip and had his personality and memories. Once the creature was injected with Tripp's DNA it became an identical clone. My point was that Sim didn't want to die but was forced into it.

Big differences to me are that Sim was created with the sole intent of saving the life of his originator, Sim had only a few days to live anyways, and that Trip wasnt dead yet.

However, as a sentient being and someone who never swore an oath to Starfleet, Sim should have had the right to choose for himself. Also, Archer should never have authorized the procedure in my opinion.

 

[Sindatur]

I'll throw in some episodes from other series which some may use to weigh in whether Janeway repected the rights of the individual in keeping with Trek values. I'm curious to see how people think these hold weight for this discussion.

ENT: Similitude (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Similitude_(episode))

TOS: The Enemy Within (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Enemy_Within_(episode))

Wasn't Sim a complexly different genus and species?
He wasn't even humanoid, he was a bug mimicing a human.

Sim was genetically identical to Trip and had his personality and memories. Once the creature was injected with Tripp's DNA it became an identical clone. My point was that Sim didn't want to die but was forced into it.

Big differences to me are that Sim was created with the sole intent of saving the life of his originator, Sim had only a few days to live anyways, and that Trip wasnt dead yet.

However, as a sentient being and someone who never swore an oath to Starfleet, Sim should have had the right to choose for himself. Also, Archer should never have authorized the procedure in my opinion.

Yea, operating under the belief that Sim would live it's entire lifetime, I have no problem with it being created to save Tucker's life. However, once created, it shouldn't have been prematurely killed in order to harvest from it's genetic materials.

 

[exodus]

I'm not sure we're in a position to judge whether a lifeform merits existence on the grounds that it's only "mimicing" a human.

Data and the EMH only mimic humans, but don't have a right to exist?

They're both machines
Machines don't have rights.
Even "Measure of Man" & "Author Author" ends with that decision left unanswered because mankind still can't determine that they qualify.

 

[Unicron]

But the Ballard case shows her to be inconsistent with her principle of the original life form taking precidence. Until you're familiar with that situation, you can't properly judge Janeway on this issue.

Inconsistent in what way? It was Ballard's choice to ultimately return with the Kobali, not Janeway's, and the captain accepted her right to do so, as did Kim and her fellow crewmates (even if none of them liked the idea). It's not the same as the case with Tuvix in my view, because there Janeway did make a choice for him that nobody else could make.

They're both machines
Machines don't have rights.
Even "Measure of Man" & "Author Author" ends with that decision left unanswered because mankind still can't determine that they qualify.

Not sure I'd agree with you there. We know that Picard apparently played a significant role in defining rights for beings like Data in the Federation, and even Maddox seemed to quickly realize how difficult it would be to prove his original argument (Data didn't qualify for such rights because he wasn't sentient, but Picard demonstrated how hard it can be to define "sentience" for such a purpose).

"Author, Author" is a somewhat different case, in that holograms (who are usually designed to fulfill a specific utility or function) lack such rights under most circumstances, but I do think the Doctor would be a good case for potentially changing such laws. I'd consider him sentient by the time Voyager returned home, but he only gained that degree of development because of the Caretaker marooning the ship in the DQ, and only broke out of his "original" programming fairly slowly.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I've always assumed that the end of Virtuoso is just something Janeway programmed into the Doctors memories.

of course, is it something she programmed into the doctor to keep him or something she programmed into the EMH back Up so that he wouldn't leave too.

 

[exodus]

But the Ballard case shows her to be inconsistent with her principle of the original life form taking precidence. Until you're familiar with that situation, you can't properly judge Janeway on this issue.

Inconsistent in what way? It was Ballard's choice to ultimately return with the Kobali, not Janeway's, and the captain accepted her right to do so, as did Kim and her fellow crewmates (even if none of them liked the idea). It's not the same as the case with Tuvix in my view, because there Janeway did make a choice for him that nobody else could make.

They're both machines
Machines don't have rights.
Even "Measure of Man" & "Author Author" ends with that decision left unanswered because mankind still can't determine that they qualify.

Not sure I'd agree with you there. We know that Picard apparently played a significant role in defining rights for beings like Data in the Federation, and even Maddox seemed to quickly realize how difficult it would be to prove his original argument (Data didn't qualify for such rights because he wasn't sentient, but Picard demonstrated how hard it can be to define "sentience" for such a purpose).

"Author, Author" is a somewhat different case, in that holograms (who are usually designed to fulfill a specific utility or function) lack such rights under most circumstances, but I do think the Doctor would be a good case for potentially changing such laws. I'd consider him sentient by the time Voyager returned home, but he only gained that degree of development because of the Caretaker marooning the ship in the DQ, and only broke out of his "original" programming fairly slowly.

What up, Uni.?
Long time, no see.

My issue with things such as Data and the EMH is, if we give everything man creates that behaves as we do equal rights, then where do we draw the line? When is a machine just a machine? How broad is the spectrum of what we consider "real" life? If we give Data and the EMH rights, then do ALL androids and Holograms get rights too? If so, then the holodeck can no longer be a place of entertainment, it now becomes a society and using them then becomes exploitation or denying rights of androids & holgrams then becomes discrimination, regardless if their abilities or awareness is limited. There has to be a defining line of what we see as life and what is a creation that is only meant to serve as a tool.

Are Data and the EMH property?
Are they owned by Starfleet?
I'm fairly sure the EMH is.
If he's considered property, then he has no entitlement to rights.
Data is a machine, is he property too?
These things are considered equal to those on the ships they serve on but how does society as a whole view them?
We see them as real thru the eyes of Picard and Janeway but what of those outside Starfleet? Would the regular person on the street view Data or the Doc. as life?
What of the races in the Federation that are religious?
Are Data and the EMH considered perversions if even considered given rights?

 

[MatthiasRussell]

But the Ballard case shows her to be inconsistent with her principle of the original life form taking precidence. Until you're familiar with that situation, you can't properly judge Janeway on this issue.

Inconsistent in what way? It was Ballard's choice to ultimately return with the Kobali, not Janeway's, and the captain accepted her right to do so, as did Kim and her fellow crewmates (even if none of them liked the idea). It's not the same as the case with Tuvix in my view, because there Janeway did make a choice for him that nobody else could make.

If Janeway respects the right's of the body's original owner, then the being that now had Ballard's body was desicating it. It still held the memories and genetic material of Ballard. The being deciding to leave Voyager was NOT Lyndsay Ballard. Her deciding to take off with the body is no different than Tuvix deciding he wanted to continue living at the expense of the lives of Tuvok and Neelix. If Janeway respects the original body owner, then she should have held the alien creature and continued attempting to restore Ballard.

If the alien inhabiting Ballard's body had the right to choose to keep the body at Lyndsay's expense, then Tuvix had the right to do the same.

 

[Unicron]

We might have to agree to disagree on that, because I'm not clear why you think the person claiming to be Ballard is no longer her because she was given some alien biologies and cultural influences. The ep makes it pretty clear that most of her original human personality survived and that she still wanted to be on Voyager, but that her alterations also made that difficult. I don't think it's comparable to Tuvix at all. By your definition, Sisko wasn't human because the Prophets caused his birth and interacted with him on an exclusive level so he could be their emissary.

My issue with things such as Data and the EMH is, if we give everything man creates that behaves as we do equal rights, then where do we draw the line? When is a machine just a machine? How broad is the spectrum of what we consider "real" life? If we give Data and the EMH rights, then do ALL androids and Holograms get rights too? If so, then the holodeck can no longer be a place of entertainment, it now becomes a society and using them then becomes exploitation or denying rights of androids & holgrams then becomes discrimination, regardless if their abilities or awareness is limited. There has to be a defining line of what we see as life and what is a creation that is only meant to serve as a tool.

Are Data and the EMH property?
Are they owned by Starfleet?
I'm fairly sure the EMH is.
If he's considered property, then he has no entitlement to rights.
Data is a machine, is he property too?
These things are considered equal to those on the ships they serve on but how does society as a whole view them?
We see them as real thru the eyes of Picard and Janeway but what of those outside Starfleet? Would the regular person on the street view Data or the Doc. as life?
What of the races in the Federation that are religious?
Are Data and the EMH considered perversions if even considered given rights?

It's a valid question, and my own feeling is this: Data and Lore were always intended to have the capacity for sentience that humans have, in the same way that a planet full of Soong-type androids could be expected to develop their own culture and traditions. The Doctor and other holograms have that same potential too, but because they are designed primarily as tools or companions they're less likely to take the initiative on their own. The EMH did because of Voyager's unique situation, and I don't mean to infer that he's less sentient than Data as a result.

We tend to develop our own definitions of determining life and sentience, but as Picard pointed out in "Measure of a Man," Data met all of the perceived qualities for sentience that would also apply to a human. It's hard to judge how society as a whole perceives them, because we just haven't been given much information either way. I don't think the Bolian published was necessarily biased against holograms (I'd have to go back and watch the ep again), but he didn't feel bound to honor Doc's request because the law says that holograms don't have the same rights as others.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sisko wasn't human.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Hey?

Is that how he was able to deck Q?

I'd assumed that Q was humouring Sisko, but what if Sisko could punch through and around time, that Q never saw it coming?

 

[MatthiasRussell]

We might have to agree to disagree on that, because I'm not clear why you think the person claiming to be Ballard is no longer her because she was given some alien biologies and cultural influences. The ep makes it pretty clear that most of her original human personality survived and that she still wanted to be on Voyager, but that her alterations also made that difficult. I don't think it's comparable to Tuvix at all. By your definition, Sisko wasn't human because the Prophets caused his birth and interacted with him on an exclusive level so he could be their emissary.

Tuvix had the memories and personality traits of Neelix and Tuvok but he was a different being himself, more than the sum of the parts that went into creating him. The same was true of Ballard after her change; she had the same memories and some of the old genetics but had become something new. Over the time that the new beings that came from those seeds gained new experience and evolved in their new lives, they became a new life, new entities.

In either case, killing the new creature to recreate the old would be like trying to turn a butterfly back into a caterpillar. Except in both their cases, the caterpiller was dead before it became a caterpillar and new DNA was added to create the change.


'My' definiton doesn't make Sisko any different from any other human. the prophets maneuvered events to create a person who, to them, already existed and would exist. They caused 2 humans to conceive a child without adding any new DNA. In the case of Ballard and Tuvix, a new life was created from a pre-existing one with new genetics added to the mix. Tuvix wasn't even simply a Talaxian/Vulcan hybrid since the flower DNA was added in.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You don't know that the DNA wasn't altered by some inperceptible method, or his "mother" didn't change him, or educate him in the womb like what happened to kal in the Rocket ride to Earth in the 70s movie. At what point does he stop being completely human?

He was after all able to go live as a Prophet in the finale, and a regular human shouldn't be bale to do that.