Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

[MacLeod]

So if hypothetically Tuvix said can you drop me off on this planet before you go. Janeway would have to leave him there? The only alternative would be to imprision him.

And what meaningful life could he have if the threat of beaming killed was looming over him?

At what point to you say enough time has passed before you give up on Neelix and Tuvok? A week, A year? What would happen theortically if they only discovered a way to get Neelix and Tuvok back 3 years after the accident. Would it be ok to do it then?

What legal parameters do you set? Strictly speaking Janeway shouldn't have been presiding over the matter, as she has an emotional investment in the outcome. It was only due to Voyager's unique circumstances that she had to. She has no set a dangerous precedent in law.

 

[exodus]

Quinn's decision didn't affect anyone else's rights.

It affected the rights, legal system, and principles of an entire society that Janeway couldn't understand and resulted in a civil war that killed several Q.

Ummm, no.
Janeway gave Quinn life in the hopes that he would continue living, which is what the Q wanted. It was Q that started the Civil War by helping Quinn commit suicide which the Q found to be a sin. Janeway did all she could to give Quinn a reason to live.

 

[exodus]

Tuvix was alive for some time in which time Tuvok and Neelix could and maybe should have been considered legally dead. Tuvix wasn't killed to save 2 lives, he was killed to bring 2 people back from the dead.

If they were considered dead, then they never could have been brought back in the first place. The show starts off with the EMH saying that he can find a way to separate them to bring them back. The chief medical officer didn't consider or pronounce them dead, then there is no reason we should.

 

[MacLeod]

But in order to bring them back did they have to in essence murder Tuvix?

 

[MatthiasRussell]

If they were considered dead, then they never could have been brought back in the first place. The show starts off with the EMH saying that he can find a way to separate them to bring them back. The chief medical officer didn't consider or pronounce them dead, then there is no reason we should.

So if someone is lost in a transporter snafu, when do you declare them dead? Their signal merged to become an entirely new signal- a new lifeform. At that moment they ceased to exist. The doctor may not have declared them dead, but since their transporter patterns were lost and their matter destroyed and reconstructed, they were biologically dead.

Plus, the doctor, like Janeway, was emotionally compromised as the individuals were his friends and persoanl patients. Just because he didn't want to declare them dead, doesn't mean that he shouldn't have.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

He has all the rights (The right not to be imprisoned nor abused, the right to a meaningful life while he waits for Tuvok and Neelix to be saved or given up on, etc), except the right to deny Tuvok and Neelix from being saved if possible. Once that possibility is given up, then he also inherits the right to keep the body.

So what about Lyndsay Ballard in "Ashes to Ashes"? She was just as dead as Neelix and Tuvok. However, Janeway let the new lifeform in her body run off with Lyndsay's biologically alive body and memories. How did the new lifeform there have more rights as an individual than Tuvix? Or was it because the ship was threatened, the individual was sacrificed for the good of the group?

 

[Sindatur]

He has all the rights (The right not to be imprisoned nor abused, the right to a meaningful life while he waits for Tuvok and Neelix to be saved or given up on, etc), except the right to deny Tuvok and Neelix from being saved if possible. Once that possibility is given up, then he also inherits the right to keep the body.

So what about Lyndsay Ballard in "Ashes to Ashes"? She was just as dead as Neelix and Tuvok. However, Janeway let the new lifeform in her body run off with Lyndsay's biologically alive body and memories. How did the new lifeform there have more rights as an individual than Tuvix? Or was it because the ship was threatened, the individual was sacrificed for the good of the group?

I don't know who Lyndsay Ballard is, nor do I recall an episode Ashes to Ashes. Might this be an episode later than mid-season 3 (I've missed alot beyond mid-season 3 and currently watching all the way through)?

It sounds to me like you wouldn't be in favor of Deborgifying Seven. Annika was, afterall, "killed" by the Borg, and another person, part of the Collective, took her place. That other person was killed when Seven was De-Borgified. How long ago was Annika assimilated, years, I believe, far longer than Tuvix existed

 

[MacLeod]

But one possible argument is that Annika had her individuality stolen from her. When she was removed from the collective she had what was stolen from her returned.

In the case of Quinn he was impriosned in part for wanting to end his own life. So he was denied choice.

In the case of Tuvok and Neelix, they knew the risks when stepping into the transporter that there was a possibility no matter how remote that the transporter could malfunction which it did. If you willingly take a risk and it doesn't pay off why should someone else have to pay for your gamble?

 

[DonIago]

This is why I still think it would have been awesome if Tuvok and Neelix had been allowed to express any sort of opinion regarding the cost involved in restoring them. While it can be argued that Tuvix was biased, it could also be argued that he was in the best position to know what Tuvok and Neelix would feel about the idea of killing him to bring them back, and I believe he made his opposition patently obvious.

I sure as hell wouldn't be too thrilled to think that someone who meant me no harm was killed in order to save my life, especially if they were an entirely unique lifeform.

 

[Sindatur]

But one possible argument is that Annika had her individuality stolen from her. When she was removed from the collective she had what was stolen from her returned.

In the case of Quinn he was impriosned in part for wanting to end his own life. So he was denied choice.

In the case of Tuvok and Neelix, they knew the risks when stepping into the transporter that there was a possibility no matter how remote that the transporter could malfunction which it did. If you willingly take a risk and it doesn't pay off why should someone else have to pay for your gamble?

If we were talking about the NX-01 Transporter, I could give this argument of the gamble credence, but, not by the time of Voyager, getting on the ship in the first place, or taking a shuttle down to the planet is far more of a gamble then using the transporter in Voyager's time. That's like blaming someone for getting hit by a drunk driver on New Year's Eve if they gamble to drive that night

Annika and her parents took a bigger gamble being on a ship the Borg could assimlate, than the gamble Neelix and Tuvok took to use the transporter.

 

[DonIago]

I would instead argue that in Tuvok's case, at least, he knew the risks when he joined Starfleet. The lines may get a bit more blurry for Neelix.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Janeway does have the authority to order Tuvok to his death but doesn't have the authority to do so with Neelix. I'm not so sure whether she had the legal authority to order Tuvix to his death.

Even if she had the authority to (which I won't argue), that doesn't mean it was the moral thing to do. Also, under the Starfleet charter to seek out new life, even if she had the legal authority to execute Tuvix, that doesn't mean it was very principled to kill a new form of life or species.

 

[Sindatur]

Janeway does have the authority to order Tuvok to his death but doesn't have the authority to do so with Neelix. I'm not so sure whether she had the legal authority to order Tuvix to his death.

Even if she had the authority to (which I won't argue), that doesn't mean it was the moral thing to do. Also, under the Starfleet charter to seek out new life, even if she had the legal authority to execute Tuvix, that doesn't mean it was very principled to kill a new form of life or species.

Of course she has the authority to do whatever with Neelix, he's a member of her crew, and she is the Captain, without contact with her superiors, she is Judge, Jury and Executioner on her ship. Now, of course, if/when they make it back to Federation Space, she could be Court Martialed for any judgements/actions she took that Starfleet might disagree with, but, as long as she's top dog, it's her ship, and she can do as she pleases.

Now of course, this doesn't make immoral acts moral, it only states she is at this time, the ultimate authority on her ship.

However, I don't think her decision to save Neelix and Tuvok by sacrificing Tuvix was immoral.

 

[sonak]

Janeway does have the authority to order Tuvok to his death but doesn't have the authority to do so with Neelix. I'm not so sure whether she had the legal authority to order Tuvix to his death.

Even if she had the authority to (which I won't argue), that doesn't mean it was the moral thing to do. Also, under the Starfleet charter to seek out new life, even if she had the legal authority to execute Tuvix, that doesn't mean it was very principled to kill a new form of life or species.

Of course she has the authority to do whatever with Neelix, he's a member of her crew, and she is the Captain, without contact with her superiors, she is Judge, Jury and Executioner on her ship. Now, of course, if/when they make it back to Federation Space, she could be Court Martialed for any judgements/actions she took that Starfleet might disagree with, but, as long as she's top dog, it's her ship, and she can do as she pleases.

Now of course, this doesn't make immoral acts moral, it only states she is at this time, the ultimate authority on her ship.

However, I don't think her decision to save Neelix and Tuvok by sacrificing Tuvix was immoral.

um, what? She's a captain, not a dictator. You think that military captains have the right to "do what they please" to a member of their crew?

 

[Sindatur]

Janeway does have the authority to order Tuvok to his death but doesn't have the authority to do so with Neelix. I'm not so sure whether she had the legal authority to order Tuvix to his death.

Even if she had the authority to (which I won't argue), that doesn't mean it was the moral thing to do. Also, under the Starfleet charter to seek out new life, even if she had the legal authority to execute Tuvix, that doesn't mean it was very principled to kill a new form of life or species.

Of course she has the authority to do whatever with Neelix, he's a member of her crew, and she is the Captain, without contact with her superiors, she is Judge, Jury and Executioner on her ship. Now, of course, if/when they make it back to Federation Space, she could be Court Martialed for any judgements/actions she took that Starfleet might disagree with, but, as long as she's top dog, it's her ship, and she can do as she pleases.

Now of course, this doesn't make immoral acts moral, it only states she is at this time, the ultimate authority on her ship.

However, I don't think her decision to save Neelix and Tuvok by sacrificing Tuvix was immoral.

um, what? She's a captain, not a dictator. You think that military captains have the right to "do what they please" to a member of their crew?

Under those circumstances, with no superior, she has whatever authority she assigns to herself, so long as the crew backs her up. If she goes too far, they of course, could/would mutiny and no longer support her. And again, if/when, they arrive in Federation Space, she could/would be held responsible for her actions.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

She has the authority to order members of Starfleet to their death to accomplish a mission or to save her ship and crew, but Neelix is not a member of Starfleet. She has the legal right to order him off the ship, but not the legal right to demand he lay down his life.


BTW, would anyone who has seen Ashes to Ashes care to comment on the similarities or differences between the cases of Lyndsay Ballard and Tuvix?

 

[Sindatur]

She has the authority to order members of Starfleet to their death to accomplish a mission or to save her ship and crew, but Neelix is not a member of Starfleet. She has the legal right to order him off the ship, but not the legal right to demand he lay down his life.


BTW, would anyone who has seen Ashes to Ashes care to comment on the similarities or differences between the cases of Lyndsay Ballard and Tuvix?

Who would stop her from doing whatever she wanted? The only ones who could stop her, is a mutinous crew. Starfleet is 70,000 Light Years away, they have no contact with her, and no way to give her orders, until that happens, she answers to no one but herself, so she has whatever authority she assigns herself, as long as she has the muscle of the crew supporting her.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Living in a democracy, we forget how its like in the military, esp the "old days" sailing the the seven seas where the Captain's word WAS (and probably is, in international waters) LAW.

JANEWAY: Maybe this is one of those decisions that the captain has to make for the entire ship.
CHAKOTAY: You may have a problem if a lot of people want to stay.
JANEWAY: I know that, but at the same time I can't take a vote every time there's a major decision to be made. And yet, we're a long way from Starfleet, and a lot of the rules and regulations I've learnt to uphold seem distant as well.

Janeway, 75000 light years away from the alpha quadrant, is it for these people.

We tend to forget several points about the Tuvix conundrum.

first...

Initially, Tuvix actively tried to create a method to reverse this situation.

EMH: We've made over a hundred attempts to reverse the symbiogenesis using the medical transporter, and each time this has been the unfortunate result. Complete cellular collapse.
KIM: The genetic codes of the chrysanthemum and the clematis are so scrambled that the targeting scanners can't recognise the original patterns.
TUVIX: I suppose it would be like trying to extract the flour, eggs and water after you've baked the cake.
EMH: Obviously, in the case of Mister Tuvix, we're dealing with a much more complex organism than a flower. In effect, we're talking about recreating two humanoid life-forms without so much as a single discrete strand of DNA to start with.
TUVIX: Are you saying I'm going to be this way forever?
EMH: I am an incredibly skilled doctor, and I will continue to pursue a safe and effective treatment until I find one. But I won't lie to you. I'm not optimistic. It could take months, even years, to find a solution. And we must face the possibility that this condition is simply untreatable. I feel as though I've lost two patients. I'm sorry.

second...

Tuvix isn't a new lifeform... he's Neelix and Tuvok. Unlike Lindsay Ballard, there isn't someone new here, there is just an amalgamation of two previous beings.

KES: Well, do you feel as if you're thinking with two minds, two separate minds? Are Neelix and Tuvok inside of you, talking to me, talking to each other?
TUVIX: If you mean am I suffering from some form of multiple personality disorder, I don't think so. I do have the memories of both men, but I seem to have a single consciousness.

and just a few lines later, this slips out of "Tuvix"...

TUVIX: I am so glad you're here to help me through this, sweeting. I'm sorry... It was instinct.

Sweeting.


A term of endearment reserved to one person out of the 150 or so onboard Voyager... Neelix. Not Tuvok. Not Tuvix.

Neelix.

Tuvix was an artifically created being out of the building blocks of two other living beings, not from the burnt out corpse like someone we know.

Two other living beings that had a certain expectation of the Captain to whom they were expected to pledge their life, their work, their very posterity to.

Magistrate [on viewscreen]: You're talking about a very specific case. Nevad was able to claim responsibility for the prince as a father and as a king. That's why the spirits were willing to listen to him.
JANEWAY: The Captain of a starship is fully responsible for every member of her crew.
Magistrate [on viewscreen]: So she is.
JANEWAY: And on that basis, I'd like to go through the ritual myself.

That's why this show is so powerful.

Janeway was willing and able to take on the SIN of killing this new lifeform, to save her two crewmen.

We know she thinks its a sin, because of the face we see as she leaves the sickbay.

We know she believes all three have a right to live, but that possession may be 9/10's of the law... but in the end its ONLY 9/10's of the law.

This Captain had the balls to stand up for the 1/10... those 2 individuals who (except for Kes) were without a voice in the argument.

Kes: ...Tuvix doesn't deserve to die, but I want Neelix back.

If I was 75,000 light years from home, I know who I'd want in my corner.

Someone willing to march into 800 megajoules of bioelectric energy to save my life.

Someone willing to rip her soul into shreds to save me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TusE73gkEyQ

Because... quite honestly...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29SZnMaTsxY

I'd do it to save her.


[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29SZnMaTsxY[/yt]

 

[DonIago]

And conversely, as noted, I -wouldn't- want someone in my corner who'd be willing to murder an innocent lifeform just to bring me back to life.

I'll keep The Doctor in my corner.

 

[MacLeod]

Janeway does have the authority to order Tuvok to his death but doesn't have the authority to do so with Neelix. I'm not so sure whether she had the legal authority to order Tuvix to his death.

Even if she had the authority to (which I won't argue), that doesn't mean it was the moral thing to do. Also, under the Starfleet charter to seek out new life, even if she had the legal authority to execute Tuvix, that doesn't mean it was very principled to kill a new form of life or species.

Of course she has the authority to do whatever with Neelix, he's a member of her crew, and she is the Captain, without contact with her superiors, she is Judge, Jury and Executioner on her ship. Now, of course, if/when they make it back to Federation Space, she could be Court Martialed for any judgements/actions she took that Starfleet might disagree with, but, as long as she's top dog, it's her ship, and she can do as she pleases.

Now of course, this doesn't make immoral acts moral, it only states she is at this time, the ultimate authority on her ship.

However, I don't think her decision to save Neelix and Tuvok by sacrificing Tuvix was immoral.

Unfortunantly from a legal point of view she had no right to decide as she was emotional invested in the outcome. She should have recused herself until such time starfleet could be contacted so an impartial judge could decide.

After all the argument seems to be Tuvix had no rights, so what's the problem if he had to wait an indefinate time until someone impartial had ruled on the matter.

Tuvix had the same right to life as Tuvok and Neelix.