Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

[exodus]

So if someone is lost in a transporter snafu, when do you declare them dead? Their signal merged to become an entirely new signal- a new lifeform. At that moment they ceased to exist. The doctor may not have declared them dead, but since their transporter patterns were lost and their matter destroyed and reconstructed, they were biologically dead.

Not according to the EMH in the episode.
If their patterns were lost then there never was any chance at separation. According to Tuvix himself, Neelix and Tuvok were alive in him. He had their memories and experiences. He also willingly agreed upon his creation that he would give up his life if a cure was found to bring them back. He knew all time that his life wasn't promised.
Plus, if this is the case then de-Borging Picard and Seven was also killing a lifeform because they both cease to be Jean-Luc Picard and Annika Hansen and are as Borg are new life.

 

[exodus]

Janeway does have the authority to order Tuvok to his death but doesn't have the authority to do so with Neelix. I'm not so sure whether she had the legal authority to order Tuvix to his death.

Even if she had the authority to (which I won't argue), that doesn't mean it was the moral thing to do. Also, under the Starfleet charter to seek out new life, even if she had the legal authority to execute Tuvix, that doesn't mean it was very principled to kill a new form of life or species.

Of course she has the authority to do whatever with Neelix, he's a member of her crew, and she is the Captain, without contact with her superiors, she is Judge, Jury and Executioner on her ship. Now, of course, if/when they make it back to Federation Space, she could be Court Martialed for any judgements/actions she took that Starfleet might disagree with, but, as long as she's top dog, it's her ship, and she can do as she pleases.

Now of course, this doesn't make immoral acts moral, it only states she is at this time, the ultimate authority on her ship.

However, I don't think her decision to save Neelix and Tuvok by sacrificing Tuvix was immoral.

Unfortunantly from a legal point of view she had no right to decide as she was emotional invested in the outcome. She should have recused herself until such time starfleet could be contacted so an impartial judge could decide.

After all the argument seems to be Tuvix had no rights, so what's the problem if he had to wait an indefinate time until someone impartial had ruled on the matter.

Tuvix had the same right to life as Tuvok and Neelix.

Didn't Tuvix agree that if a cure was found he would willingly under go it to bring back Neelix and Tuvok? So isn't he willingly forfeiting his right to life?

 

[sonak]

And conversely, as noted, I -wouldn't- want someone in my corner who'd be willing to murder an innocent lifeform just to bring me back to life.

I'll keep The Doctor in my corner.

there was nobody to speak for Tuvok and Neelix there, and obviously they could have made no such statements beforehand since this was such a freak occurrence.

 

[DonIago]

To be fair, we don't know what rights one voluntarily waives when one joins Starfleet, or what the conditions of Neelix becoming a member of the crew might have been.

While the particulars of this situation may have been unprecedented, transporter accidents on the whole are hardly unknown to Starfleet.

 

[MacLeod]

Of course she has the authority to do whatever with Neelix, he's a member of her crew, and she is the Captain, without contact with her superiors, she is Judge, Jury and Executioner on her ship. Now, of course, if/when they make it back to Federation Space, she could be Court Martialed for any judgements/actions she took that Starfleet might disagree with, but, as long as she's top dog, it's her ship, and she can do as she pleases.

Now of course, this doesn't make immoral acts moral, it only states she is at this time, the ultimate authority on her ship.

However, I don't think her decision to save Neelix and Tuvok by sacrificing Tuvix was immoral.

Unfortunantly from a legal point of view she had no right to decide as she was emotional invested in the outcome. She should have recused herself until such time starfleet could be contacted so an impartial judge could decide.

After all the argument seems to be Tuvix had no rights, so what's the problem if he had to wait an indefinate time until someone impartial had ruled on the matter.

Tuvix had the same right to life as Tuvok and Neelix.

Didn't Tuvix agree that if a cure was found he would willingly under go it to bring back Neelix and Tuvok? So isn't he willingly forfeiting his right to life?

If Tuvix was willing to do it, why did we need a hearing?

 

[exodus]

Unfortunantly from a legal point of view she had no right to decide as she was emotional invested in the outcome. She should have recused herself until such time starfleet could be contacted so an impartial judge could decide.

After all the argument seems to be Tuvix had no rights, so what's the problem if he had to wait an indefinate time until someone impartial had ruled on the matter.

Tuvix had the same right to life as Tuvok and Neelix.

Didn't Tuvix agree that if a cure was found he would willingly under go it to bring back Neelix and Tuvok? So isn't he willingly forfeiting his right to life?

If Tuvix was willing to do it, why did we need a hearing?

...because he reneged on his promise, which also should have been in writing to make it legal and binding.......... but this is the Federation/Starfleet. Where people take people on their word. Remember how shocked everyone was when Tuvix said "no"? It's why I believe nobody step up to save him when he protested. They were all aware of the agreement he made and that his life was never promised, no matter how much they grew attached to him. They all knew that "death" was always a possibility.
What I'm surprised at by the episode is that there was no inner conflict between the two personalities in him. I can't see Tuvok going back on a promise but I can see Neelix doing so out of fear.

 

[MacLeod]

Wait so his crime was changing his mind.

Has anyone here not changed their mind at some point in their life?

 

[exodus]

Wait so his crime was changing his mind.

Has anyone here not changed their mind at some point in their life?

Seriously?

Do we or do we not roast Janeway for changing her mind in some situations, such as not giving technology to the Kazon but giving it to the Hirogen? Tuvix can change his mind and not be seen as criminal but Janeway does it and she is? How many posters change their stance in a debate on this site and are criticized for it?

So yes, our online peers have already cast their vote that changing ones mind is a crime.

 

[DonIago]

I never roasted Janeway for that. People are allowed to, as Obama would say, "evolve their views".

 

[exodus]

I never roasted Janeway for that. People are allowed to, as Obama would say, "evolve their views".

Come on now, I said "our peers" and Obama isn't a member nor is that way of thinking adapted to this board.

 

[DonIago]

You mean open-mindedness?

 

[MacLeod]

Wait so his crime was changing his mind.

Has anyone here not changed their mind at some point in their life?

Seriously?

Do we or do we not roast Janeway for changing her mind in some situations, such as not giving technology to the Kazon but giving it to the Hirogen? Tuvix can change his mind and not be seen as criminal but Janeway does it and she is? How many posters change their stance in a debate on this site and are criticized for it?

So yes, our online peers have already cast their vote that changing ones mind is a crime.

You're not seriously trying to argue that changing your mind and deciding to live is the same as Janeway saying "Ok, I'll give you some of our technology" are you?

It doesn't matter how the being Tuvix came to be, he was a unique lifeform. Janeway's ruling was basically to murder him. He commited no crime to speak off, he had no saying in how he was created. Last I chceked there was only one offense that warrented the death sentance in the Federation, visiting Talos IV.

We generally don't punish people for things beyond their control.

 

[sonak]

Wait so his crime was changing his mind.

Has anyone here not changed their mind at some point in their life?

Seriously?

Do we or do we not roast Janeway for changing her mind in some situations, such as not giving technology to the Kazon but giving it to the Hirogen? Tuvix can change his mind and not be seen as criminal but Janeway does it and she is? How many posters change their stance in a debate on this site and are criticized for it?

So yes, our online peers have already cast their vote that changing ones mind is a crime.

You're not seriously trying to argue that changing your mind and deciding to live is the same as Janeway saying "Ok, I'll give you some of our technology" are you?

It doesn't matter how the being Tuvix came to be, he was a unique lifeform. Janeway's ruling was basically to murder him. He commited no crime to speak off, he had no saying in how he was created. Last I chceked there was only one offense that warrented the death sentance in the Federation, visiting Talos IV.

We generally don't punish people for things beyond their control.

you're simplifying a complex issue. Tuvix was basically denying Tuvok and Neelix's rights to life.(again unintentionally)

It's an outlandish sci-fi premise that wouldn't happen, but in the context of the show, I'm of the opinion that there was no "right" answer in that situation. Either decision would be a bad one. Not doing the procedure meant consenting to the deaths of Tuvok and Neelix, both of whom have a right to life that was taken from them in that instance. On the other hand, doing the procedure meant denying Tuvix his rights as a sentient being, so whichever way the decision went, it was going to be ugly.

 

[MacLeod]

Yes but in the case of Tuvok's and Neelix's life, there lifes could have been considered lost in a transporter accident. Whilst the procedure to bring them back invovled the murder of another lifeform. There is a difference between a life being lost in an accident and taking a life.

But as you say you basically have two choices, bad allow Tuvix to live and consider Tuvok and Neelix as being killed in a transporter accident and worse murder another being to bring them back.

 

[sonak]

Yes but in the case of Tuvok's and Neelix's life, there lifes could have been considered lost in a transporter accident. Whilst the procedure to bring them back invovled the murder of another lifeform. There is a difference between a life being lost in an accident and taking a life.

But as you say you basically have two choices, bad allow Tuvix to live and consider Tuvok and Neelix as being killed in a transporter accident and worse murder another being to bring them back.

your premise rests on Tuvok and Neelix being considered dead during that time. If you change their status to "missing," does that change your views?

 

[MacLeod]

No it doesn't, the issue is did Janeway have the right to murder Tuvix by forcing him to undergo something against his will.

Did Tuvix have the same rights as any other Federation Citizen?
If not what rights does he have?
If he does not have the same rights as other Federation Citizens, Why is he not afforded them?

 

[sonak]

No it doesn't, the issue is did Janeway have the right to murder Tuvix by forcing him to undergo something against his will.

Did Tuvix have the same rights as any other Federation Citizen?
If not what rights does he have?
If he does not have the same rights as other Federation Citizens, Why is he not afforded them?

Why are Tuvok and Neelix's rights not part of the picture to you?

Tuvix is kind of an accidental body-snatcher/organ-harvester here.

 

[MacLeod]

Why aren't Tuvix's rights part of the picture to you?

I believe I have already said previously, Tuvix has the same rights as Tuvok and Neelix.

Is the argument that is it ok to murder 1 person to bring back 2? If so where is the line drawn, is it alright to murder 1million to if that'll bring back 1 million and 2? Where is the line drawn?

Are the two sides of the arguments :-

1.>Tuvix was entitled to the same rights to life as due all Federation Citizens.

2.>Tuvix was NOT entitled to the same rights to life as due all Federation Citizens.

The fact that Tuvix was created in a transporter accident at the expense of Neelix and Tuvok should not come into it. Because it was an accident. How can Tuvix be held responsible for how he came to be?

 

[sonak]

Why aren't Tuvix's rights part of the picture to you?

I believe I have already said previously, Tuvix has the same rights as Tuvok and Neelix.

Is the argument that is it ok to murder 1 person to bring back 2? If so where is the line drawn, is it alright to murder 1million to if that'll bring back 1 million and 2? Where is the line drawn?

Are the two sides of the arguments :-

1.>Tuvix was entitled to the same rights to life as due all Federation Citizens.

2.>Tuvix was NOT entitled to the same rights to life as due all Federation Citizens.

The fact that Tuvix was created in a transporter accident at the expense of Neelix and Tuvok should not come into it. Because it was an accident. How can Tuvix be held responsible for how he came to be?

it's not as simple as "murdering" Tuvix to bring back two. Tuvix is living at the expense of Tuvok and Neelix. Whether it's accidental or not doesn't change that. It doesn't matter what the status of those two was after the accident, they can be restored through the procedure. As I wrote, there's no right decision here in my view.

 

[MacLeod]

But in order to bring back those two you have to murder Tuvix. By letting Tuvix live, you consider them as being lost in a transporter accident.

Which is the lesser of two evils?

1.>To consider Tuvok and Neelix lost in a transporter accident and let Tuvix live.
2.>To murder Tuvix in order to restore Neelix and Tuvok.