Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

[Unicron]

BTW, would anyone who has seen Ashes to Ashes care to comment on the similarities or differences between the cases of Lyndsay Ballard and Tuvix?

IIRC - and my memory is certainly not perfect - Ballard's situation isn't quite comparable to Tuvix, nor is Quinn's although they all do share some common factors and difficult choices. Ballard was KIA on a mission and was later restored to life by an alien race who resurrect dead aliens as one means of propagating their species, and who gave her body altered DNA and memories.

It's made clear in the episode that a lot of Lyndsay's original personality remained intact and that she felt she still belonged with Voyager, but she also had trouble remembering aspects of her human life and doing activities like eating Earth food, because her body reacted differently to it. And when her "adopted" family came looking for her and were perfectly willing to fight Voyager in an attempt to "rescue" Ballard, she finally elected to return with them on account of her partially confused memories and a desire to protect her former crewmates, even if she didn't like the idea. But it wasn't a matter of Janeway arbitrarily ruling against the possibility of her being welcomed back, or anyone else in the crew. Quite the opposite. Part of Ballard also felt at home with the Kobali and her "other" family.

To be fair, in terms of writing, there are a number of issues with "Ashes to Ashes" (which was a later ep, S6). The quandary facing Ballard is rather interesting IMO, but some elements of the story seem a bit too rushed in execution to work as well as they could.

 

[Sindatur]

So, I watched Scorpion and The Gift yesterday, and I can't see how anyone coming down of the side of restoring Tuvok and Neelix' lives means murdering Tuvix and is therefore wrong, yet, thinks it was right to murder Seven, in order to restore Annika to life?

Janeway forced the change on Seven, kept her imprisoned and denied her choice, refused to allow her to return to the Borg. Restoring Annika was a far more aggressive action, and Seven had existed for 20 years, Tuvix only for a few weeks (Maybe a couple months?). 7 of 9 had no more choice in being born than Tuvix did, how can you honestly ignore this in her case, but, use it to deride Tuvix' death?

I can't fathom how anyone can come down on opposite sides in both situations. I believe both were the right decision, and it's hypocritical to be in favor of one, but, not the other.

 

[DonIago]

Well, I do think there's a difference in that Tuvix was an accidental creation whereas the Borg's creation of Seven was a deliberate imposition upon the original personality, but I'd also point out that I do have some issues with how Janeway ignored Seven's request to exist in the manner she wished to (at the time). I suppose a case could be made that she wasn't mentally competent, though that raises a whole different set of issues. In any case, unlike Hugh, Seven did clearly state that she did not wish to be de-assimilated.

If killing a child would bring back two heroes on the scale of, say, Captain America, do we do it? If we don't do it, we're effectively killing those two Captain Americas? Rhetorical.

SG-1 covered these sorts of issues rather well in "Pretense", though in that case preserving the imposed personality (more or less) was an option.

 

[sonak]

So, I watched Scorpion and The Gift yesterday, and I can't see how anyone coming down of the side of restoring Tuvok and Neelix' lives means murdering Tuvix and is therefore wrong, yet, thinks it was right to murder Seven, in order to restore Annika to life?

Janeway forced the change on Seven, kept her imprisoned and denied her choice, refused to allow her to return to the Borg. Restoring Annika was a far more aggressive action, and Seven had existed for 20 years, Tuvix only for a few weeks (Maybe a couple months?). 7 of 9 had no more choice in being born than Tuvix did, how can you honestly ignore this in her case, but, use it to deride Tuvix' death?

I can't fathom how anyone can come down on opposite sides in both situations. I believe both were the right decision, and it's hypocritical to be in favor of one, but, not the other.

The Borg "Seven of Nine" was the result of a personality rape of Annika Hansen. She was also enslaved to a Borg collective and didn't have the ability to make a competent choice as a free individual.


Had "Locutus of Borg" expressed opposition to being restored to Picard would Crusher and Riker have taken that seriously?

 

[Sindatur]

So, I watched Scorpion and The Gift yesterday, and I can't see how anyone coming down of the side of restoring Tuvok and Neelix' lives means murdering Tuvix and is therefore wrong, yet, thinks it was right to murder Seven, in order to restore Annika to life?

Janeway forced the change on Seven, kept her imprisoned and denied her choice, refused to allow her to return to the Borg. Restoring Annika was a far more aggressive action, and Seven had existed for 20 years, Tuvix only for a few weeks (Maybe a couple months?). 7 of 9 had no more choice in being born than Tuvix did, how can you honestly ignore this in her case, but, use it to deride Tuvix' death?

I can't fathom how anyone can come down on opposite sides in both situations. I believe both were the right decision, and it's hypocritical to be in favor of one, but, not the other.

The Borg "Seven of Nine" was the result of a personality rape of Annika Hansen. She was also enslaved to a Borg collective and didn't have the ability to make a competent choice as a free individual.


Had "Locutus of Borg" expressed opposition to being restored to Picard would Crusher and Riker have taken that seriously?

I'm on the side of saying it was right to restore Annika, I just don't see how freeing Tuvok and Neelix is any different. Seven of Nine stole Annika's life, through no choice of her own, and was killed to restore Annika. Tuvix stole Neelix and Tuvok's lives, through no choice of his own and was killed to restore Neelix and Tuvok. Both Annika (through her parents) and Tuvok/Neelix took a gamble (Neelix and Tuvok via using the transporter, and a near impossible accident took place, replacing them with Tuvix)(Annika's parents chose to go into unexplored space, where anything was possible and likely to happen and Annika was replaced with Seven of Nine)

 

[MacLeod]

Upon being liberated from the Borg, Annika wanted to return. Now you could argue at that time she wasn't in a fit mental state to make an informed choice. If 4 years later, she made the choice, then it might be considered an informed choice. Would Janeway have the right then to stop her?

Tuvix appeared to be making an informed choice.

It wasn't even an issue Janeway should have delt with, she could have easily put him into stasis until such time as an uninvested party could rule on the dilema.

 

[Sindatur]

Upon being liberated from the Borg, Annika wanted to return. Now you could argue at that time she wasn't in a fit mental state to make an informed choice. If 4 years later, she made the choice, then it might be considered an informed choice. Would Janeway have the right then to stop her?

Tuvix appeared to be making an informed choice.

It wasn't even an issue Janeway should have delt with, she could have easily put him into stasis until such time as an uninvested party could rule on the dilema.

So, you're saying Tuvix should've been put in stasis for 70 years?

 

[MacLeod]

Why not in the intrest of a fair trial? Janeway wasn't exactly impartial in the matter being discussed.

 

[exodus]

Why not in the intrest of a fair trial? Janeway wasn't exactly impartial in the matter being discussed.

The trial will end up the same as the debate we're having here, inconclusive. Same as "Measure of Man" and "Author, Author". Sonak is correct in saying this was a no win situation, which it is. What is right or wrong is up to each individual watching.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

^^ Yes, this is certainly Voyager's ethical Kobayashi Maru.

 

[Gov Kodos]

The episode would have been better with characters who weren't named in the credits, thus likely to return by episode's end. Janeway's choice is rather fore-ordained by that.

 

[MacLeod]

Why not in the intrest of a fair trial? Janeway wasn't exactly impartial in the matter being discussed.

The trial will end up the same as the debate we're having here, inconclusive. Same as "Measure of Man" and "Author, Author". Sonak is correct in saying this was a no win situation, which it is. What is right or wrong is up to each individual watching.

Yes but in both those instances, the party making the ruling wasn't invested in the outcome.

What Janeway did would be no different if you sat as Judge as someone who had wronged you.

Janeway in her ruling possibly set a dangerous precedent.

 

[exodus]

Why not in the intrest of a fair trial? Janeway wasn't exactly impartial in the matter being discussed.

The trial will end up the same as the debate we're having here, inconclusive. Same as "Measure of Man" and "Author, Author". Sonak is correct in saying this was a no win situation, which it is. What is right or wrong is up to each individual watching.

Yes but in both those instances, the party making the ruling wasn't invested in the outcome.

What Janeway did would be no different if you sat as Judge as someone who had wronged you.

Janeway in her ruling possibly set a dangerous precedent.

There was nobody on Voyager that could have been impartial. How could you expect a fair trial?

 

[Sindatur]

The trial will end up the same as the debate we're having here, inconclusive. Same as "Measure of Man" and "Author, Author". Sonak is correct in saying this was a no win situation, which it is. What is right or wrong is up to each individual watching.

Yes but in both those instances, the party making the ruling wasn't invested in the outcome.

What Janeway did would be no different if you sat as Judge as someone who had wronged you.

Janeway in her ruling possibly set a dangerous precedent.

There was nobody on Voyager that could have been impartial. How could you expect a fair trial?

Look back a few posts, he's willing to put Tuvix into stasis for the whole 70 year long trip home in order for him to get a fair trial

 

[exodus]

Yes but in both those instances, the party making the ruling wasn't invested in the outcome.

What Janeway did would be no different if you sat as Judge as someone who had wronged you.

Janeway in her ruling possibly set a dangerous precedent.

There was nobody on Voyager that could have been impartial. How could you expect a fair trial?

Look back a few posts, he's willing to put Tuvix into stasis for the whole 70 year long trip home in order for him to get a fair trial

The conclusion: 3 dead souls

End of debate.
Seriously, I don't see how someone can argue it's inhumane to "murder" one person for the sake of two but it isn't inhumane to put someone in stasis for 70+ years?

 

[MatthiasRussell]

So, I watched Scorpion and The Gift yesterday, and I can't see how anyone coming down of the side of restoring Tuvok and Neelix' lives means murdering Tuvix and is therefore wrong, yet, thinks it was right to murder Seven, in order to restore Annika to life?

Janeway forced the change on Seven, kept her imprisoned and denied her choice, refused to allow her to return to the Borg. Restoring Annika was a far more aggressive action, and Seven had existed for 20 years, Tuvix only for a few weeks (Maybe a couple months?). 7 of 9 had no more choice in being born than Tuvix did, how can you honestly ignore this in her case, but, use it to deride Tuvix' death?

I can't fathom how anyone can come down on opposite sides in both situations. I believe both were the right decision, and it's hypocritical to be in favor of one, but, not the other.

I would actually say taking Seven to resatore Annika was wrong. But there are some differences. Seven had no personality; she was a vessel for the collective mind of the Borg. Tuvix was a definitive seperate person. Seven was a captured and aggressive enemy combatant whereas Tuvix was a friend. I would say once Seven was captured and the Borg defeated, she SHOULD have been left off some where for the Borg to pick up.

But with the Borg there are different perspectives. In the Seven situation, I would have sent her back to the Borg. In the Locutus situation, I would have tried to restore Picard.


My original issue for this thread, though, is does Voyager/Janeway have a double standard for the rights of the individual vs the will/good of the majority.

 

[exodus]

In the Locutus situation, I would have tried to restore Picard.

So why is it wrong to bring back Tuvok and Neelix?
doesn't Locutus represent new life the same as Tuvix?
Isn't restoring Picard killing Locutus just to restore the being he used to be?

 

[MacLeod]

So you are saying that he's not entitled to an impartial hearing? And besides it was only until they could make contact with starfleet.

Which would have been in around three years.

According to TNG's "Where no one has gone before" a subspace mesage would take 52 years to travel the 2.7million light years. Dialouge indicates that they fully expected the Federation to recieve it. The speed works out as roughly as 52 000ly per year.

 

[Sindatur]

So, I watched Scorpion and The Gift yesterday, and I can't see how anyone coming down of the side of restoring Tuvok and Neelix' lives means murdering Tuvix and is therefore wrong, yet, thinks it was right to murder Seven, in order to restore Annika to life?

Janeway forced the change on Seven, kept her imprisoned and denied her choice, refused to allow her to return to the Borg. Restoring Annika was a far more aggressive action, and Seven had existed for 20 years, Tuvix only for a few weeks (Maybe a couple months?). 7 of 9 had no more choice in being born than Tuvix did, how can you honestly ignore this in her case, but, use it to deride Tuvix' death?

I can't fathom how anyone can come down on opposite sides in both situations. I believe both were the right decision, and it's hypocritical to be in favor of one, but, not the other.

I would actually say taking Seven to resatore Annika was wrong. But there are some differences. Seven had no personality; she was a vessel for the collective mind of the Borg. Tuvix was a definitive seperate person. Seven was a captured and aggressive enemy combatant whereas Tuvix was a friend. I would say once Seven was captured and the Borg defeated, she SHOULD have been left off some where for the Borg to pick up.

But with the Borg there are different perspectives. In the Seven situation, I would have sent her back to the Borg. In the Locutus situation, I would have tried to restore Picard.


My original issue for this thread, though, is does Voyager/Janeway have a double standard for the rights of the individual vs the will/good of the majority.

For me, these two situations confirm to me Janeway is consistent, she chooses to restore the original (and salvageable) owners of the bodies. I can't speak to the S6 Ballard case, as I'm only jsut beginning S4 at this point, but, 7of9 and Tuvix, I think she showed consistency

 

[exodus]

So you are saying that he's not entitled to an impartial hearing?

Nope, not even close.

And besides it was only until they could make contact with starfleet.

Which would have been in around three years.

..and you find putting someone in stasis for even that long is humane?
Janeway wasn't even that cruel to Suder.