Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

[MatthiasRussell]

Before Sisko went to live at the celestial temple, he had only experienced visions and guidance, same as many other people. When Sisko 'died' fighting Dukat, I have no idea what happened to him at that point, whether he bodily taken away or just his consciousness. However, up until that point, we have no reason to belief he was anything other than a human who had regular contact with a non coporial species. Just because his conception was guided by the prophets doesn't make any more or less human than a test tube baby.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well, it took a lot of technology going bollocks but Sisko is a walking paradox after his stint as Gabriel Bell.

That shit has got to leave marks.

 

[exodus]

We might have to agree to disagree on that, because I'm not clear why you think the person claiming to be Ballard is no longer her because she was given some alien biologies and cultural influences. The ep makes it pretty clear that most of her original human personality survived and that she still wanted to be on Voyager, but that her alterations also made that difficult. I don't think it's comparable to Tuvix at all. By your definition, Sisko wasn't human because the Prophets caused his birth and interacted with him on an exclusive level so he could be their emissary.

My issue with things such as Data and the EMH is, if we give everything man creates that behaves as we do equal rights, then where do we draw the line? When is a machine just a machine? How broad is the spectrum of what we consider "real" life? If we give Data and the EMH rights, then do ALL androids and Holograms get rights too? If so, then the holodeck can no longer be a place of entertainment, it now becomes a society and using them then becomes exploitation or denying rights of androids & holgrams then becomes discrimination, regardless if their abilities or awareness is limited. There has to be a defining line of what we see as life and what is a creation that is only meant to serve as a tool.

Are Data and the EMH property?
Are they owned by Starfleet?
I'm fairly sure the EMH is.
If he's considered property, then he has no entitlement to rights.
Data is a machine, is he property too?
These things are considered equal to those on the ships they serve on but how does society as a whole view them?
We see them as real thru the eyes of Picard and Janeway but what of those outside Starfleet? Would the regular person on the street view Data or the Doc. as life?
What of the races in the Federation that are religious?
Are Data and the EMH considered perversions if even considered given rights?

It's a valid question, and my own feeling is this: Data and Lore were always intended to have the capacity for sentience that humans have, in the same way that a planet full of Soong-type androids could be expected to develop their own culture and traditions. The Doctor and other holograms have that same potential too, but because they are designed primarily as tools or companions they're less likely to take the initiative on their own. The EMH did because of Voyager's unique situation, and I don't mean to infer that he's less sentient than Data as a result.

We tend to develop our own definitions of determining life and sentience, but as Picard pointed out in "Measure of a Man," Data met all of the perceived qualities for sentience that would also apply to a human. It's hard to judge how society as a whole perceives them, because we just haven't been given much information either way. I don't think the Bolian published was necessarily biased against holograms (I'd have to go back and watch the ep again), but he didn't feel bound to honor Doc's request because the law says that holograms don't have the same rights as others.

Picard and a publishers opinions mean nothing.
It's society and the government, not the military that determine whether a being should be considered for equal rights or not.

 

[exodus]

Before Sisko went to live at the celestial temple, he had only experienced visions and guidance, same as many other people. When Sisko 'died' fighting Dukat, I have no idea what happened to him at that point, whether he bodily taken away or just his consciousness. However, up until that point, we have no reason to belief he was anything other than a human who had regular contact with a non coporial species. Just because his conception was guided by the prophets doesn't make any more or less human than a test tube baby.

..but it does because Sisko biological mother was a Prophet, which made Sisko equal to Bajorian Jesus. Sisko like Jesus was part God.

 

[Sindatur]

Before Sisko went to live at the celestial temple, he had only experienced visions and guidance, same as many other people. When Sisko 'died' fighting Dukat, I have no idea what happened to him at that point, whether he bodily taken away or just his consciousness. However, up until that point, we have no reason to belief he was anything other than a human who had regular contact with a non coporial species. Just because his conception was guided by the prophets doesn't make any more or less human than a test tube baby.

..but it does because Sisko biological mother was a Prophet, which made Sisko equal to Bajorian Jesus. Sisko like Jesus was part God.

That's not how I remember it? What I remember is Benjamin's mother was a Human Woman, who the Prophet possessed and manipulated into marrying Benjamin's father, so Benjamin would be conceived. When the Prophet left his mother, she "fell out of love" with Benjamin's father and that's when she left the house.

So, perhaps, there is some Prophet in Benjamin, due to his biological mother being possesed by the Prophet during conception, but, the Prophet is not Benjamin's biological mother.

Am I remembering wrong?

 

[exodus]

Before Sisko went to live at the celestial temple, he had only experienced visions and guidance, same as many other people. When Sisko 'died' fighting Dukat, I have no idea what happened to him at that point, whether he bodily taken away or just his consciousness. However, up until that point, we have no reason to belief he was anything other than a human who had regular contact with a non coporial species. Just because his conception was guided by the prophets doesn't make any more or less human than a test tube baby.

..but it does because Sisko biological mother was a Prophet, which made Sisko equal to Bajorian Jesus. Sisko like Jesus was part God.

That's not how I remember it? What I remember is Benjamin's mother was a Human Woman, who the Prophet possessed and manipulated into marrying Benjamin's father, so Benjamin would be conceived. When the Prophet left his mother, she "fell out of love" with Benjamin's father and that's when she left the house.

So, perhaps, there is some Prophet in Benjamin, due to his biological mother being possesed by the Prophet during conception, but, the Prophet is not Benjamin's biological mother.

Am I remembering wrong?

Either way, the point was Ben is part Prophet.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Was the human meat of the mother changed by the prophet is the question.

Didn't Joe say that Mommy stayed for 2 years?

Think about a cake,

You can bake a chocolate cake (shut up.) and it's a chocolate cake.

But if you add bananas to the recipe while cooking it's now a chocolate/banana cake.

However.

If you bake a chocolate cake and then after it's finished cooking, you put banana icing on it, is it a chocolate cake, or a chocolate banana cake?

 

[exodus]

Was the human meat of the mother changed by the prophet is the question.

Didn't Joe say that Mommy stayed for 2 years?

Think about a cake,

You can bake a chocolate cake (shut up.) and it's a chocolate cake.

But if you add bananas to the recipe while cooking it's now a chocolate/banana cake.

However.

If you bake a chocolate cake and then after it's finished cooking, you put banana icing on it, is it a chocolate cake, or a chocolate banana cake?

It's still chocolate banana cake.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

..but it does because Sisko biological mother was a Prophet, which made Sisko equal to Bajorian Jesus. Sisko like Jesus was part God.

That's not how I remember it? What I remember is Benjamin's mother was a Human Woman, who the Prophet possessed and manipulated into marrying Benjamin's father, so Benjamin would be conceived. When the Prophet left his mother, she "fell out of love" with Benjamin's father and that's when she left the house.

So, perhaps, there is some Prophet in Benjamin, due to his biological mother being possesed by the Prophet during conception, but, the Prophet is not Benjamin's biological mother.

Am I remembering wrong?

Either way, the point was Ben is part Prophet.

Sindatur is right, Sisko was genetically human, not a hybrid. A prophet possessed Sisko's mother and guided her but didn't change her. If sisko had been something other than human, that would have been in his medical records. All they did was maneuver events to ensure his conception.

As fo the Jesus comparison, that's opening a whole other can of worms.

 

[exodus]

That's not how I remember it? What I remember is Benjamin's mother was a Human Woman, who the Prophet possessed and manipulated into marrying Benjamin's father, so Benjamin would be conceived. When the Prophet left his mother, she "fell out of love" with Benjamin's father and that's when she left the house.

So, perhaps, there is some Prophet in Benjamin, due to his biological mother being possesed by the Prophet during conception, but, the Prophet is not Benjamin's biological mother.

Am I remembering wrong?

Either way, the point was Ben is part Prophet.

Sindatur is right, Sisko was genetically human, not a hybrid. A prophet possessed Sisko's mother and guided her but didn't change her. If sisko had been something other than human, that would have been in his medical records. All they did was maneuver events to ensure his conception.

As fo the Jesus comparison, that's opening a whole other can of worms.

I don't think there's a right or wrong.
It's open to your own personal interpretation like most religious issues. Seriously, how do medical examinations detect Prophet(God) in your DNA? If God could be scientifically proven, then it wouldn't be God.

As far as a can of worms..
So is talking about a DS9 topic in the Voy. forum.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

^touche.

Just because God/gods haven't been scientifically proven or disproven doesn't mean they can't be. Just because we don't understand something, doesn't mean it is not understandable.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Do humans have coexisting "overlapping" noncoporial subsistencies?

Wow what a lot of words to say "Soul".

An alien soul in a human body.

Where have I heard that from before?

 

[DonIago]

A Prophet Not Born of the Prophets?

 

[MatthiasRussell]

If anyone was a god-child, it was that thing that Troi virgin-birthed. Not that she hadn't shagged a time or 2.

 

[exodus]

^touche.

Just because God/gods haven't been scientifically proven or disproven doesn't mean they can't be. Just because we don't understand something, doesn't mean it is not understandable.

That is not your original stance.
Your statement was God/gods can be scientifically proven via medical records. There was no maybe in your claim.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But they are scientifically killable according to DS9 The Assignment.

 

[Sindatur]

Okay, so, I watched Year of Hell, and then skipped forward to episode 6.18, the Lindsay Ballard episode, so, I could see what everyone is talking about. I don't see the problem, or Janeway's inconsistency.

Capt Picard and Annika were assimilated
Neelix and Tuvok were merged
None of them actually died, they were still retrievable
Crusher tried and succeeded in De-assimilating Capt. Picard, and the EMH did likewise with Annika
The EMH was able to de-merge Neelix and Tuvok

In Lindsay Ballard's case, she died on an Away Mission, the EMH was unable to bring her back to life. Voyager had a Funeral Service for her, and buried her in space.
Another species found her corpse, reanimated it, changed it's genetics and placed another personality into it. This should have resulted in Lindsay Ballard personality being lost, but, her memory still partially survived and she returned to Voyager for Sanctuary, and was granted it
The EMH tried to restore Lindsay completely, but, was unsuccessful in removing the Kobari Genetic changes. His partial efforts were less successful than he realized, and the Kobari personality started reasserting itself, and he would have to treat her several times a day, for the rest of her life. Lindsay couldn't handle that, and realized she didn't belong on Voyager, and there was no cure. Lindsay (not the Kobari personality) decided she couldn't live like this, she couldn't even do her job with the EMH providing her treatment several times a day. Lindsay decided to leave Voyager and allow the Kobari personality to take over.

So, Janeway made the same decision for Lindsay, that she did for Neelix, Tuvok and Annika, she gave precedence to the claim on the body to the original personality. Tuvok, Neelix and Annika were all successfully cured (and never died). The attempt to cure Lindsay failed, she was dead, unable to be restored, and the Lindsay personality was fading away, despite the attempts to cure her. Nothing more could be done, she honored Lindsay's request to be allowed to die again and let the Kobari personality take over. if Lindsay hadn't made that decision, the Kobari personality would still have taken over, but, Lindsay wouldn't have a chance to say goodbye to everyone and her Kobari personality would've been stuck on Voyager and felt out of place.

 

[Guy Gardener]

So, fuck you Harry Kim, but these days, what with Bobby dead, end even though she said "i'm going to use my mom voice" when telling Sam what to do a few months back, Lyndsasy is still way hot enough to be a love interest for one of those Winchester boys on Supernatural... Besides, who doesn't love a woman in uniform (with a gun)?

Actually, her boy came back as a Zombie.

Did she shoot him in the face or did Sam becuase that's something a mother shouldn't have to do?

 

[exodus]

Okay, so, I watched Year of Hell, and then skipped forward to episode 6.18, the Lindsay Ballard episode, so, I could see what everyone is talking about. I don't see the problem, or Janeway's inconsistency.

Capt Picard and Annika were assimilated
Neelix and Tuvok were merged
None of them actually died, they were still retrievable
Crusher tried and succeeded in De-assimilating Capt. Picard, and the EMH did likewise with Annika
The EMH was able to de-merge Neelix and Tuvok

In Lindsay Ballard's case, she died on an Away Mission, the EMH was unable to bring her back to life. Voyager had a Funeral Service for her, and buried her in space.
Another species found her corpse, reanimated it, changed it's genetics and placed another personality into it. This should have resulted in Lindsay Ballard personality being lost, but, her memory still partially survived and she returned to Voyager for Sanctuary, and was granted it
The EMH tried to restore Lindsay completely, but, was unsuccessful in removing the Kobari Genetic changes. His partial efforts were less successful than he realized, and the Kobari personality started reasserting itself, and he would have to treat her several times a day, for the rest of her life. Lindsay couldn't handle that, and realized she didn't belong on Voyager, and there was no cure. Lindsay (not the Kobari personality) decided she couldn't live like this, she couldn't even do her job with the EMH providing her treatment several times a day. Lindsay decided to leave Voyager and allow the Kobari personality to take over.

So, Janeway made the same decision for Lindsay, that she did for Neelix, Tuvok and Annika, she gave precedence to the claim on the body to the original personality. Tuvok, Neelix and Annika were all successfully cured (and never died). The attempt to cure Lindsay failed, she was dead, unable to be restored, and the Lindsay personality was fading away, despite the attempts to cure her. Nothing more could be done, she honored Lindsay's request to be allowed to die again and let the Kobari personality take over. if Lindsay hadn't made that decision, the Kobari personality would still have taken over, but, Lindsay wouldn't have a chance to say goodbye to everyone and her Kobari personality would've been stuck on Voyager and felt out of place.

In a nut shell.

 

[Guy Gardener]

O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space—were it not that I have bad dreams?