Honestly I think you could make this same topic about Adama and his principles. Though maybe not in this specific forum.Because Voyager was a show about goodies being wholesome and heroic. It was not Battlestar Galactica.
Honestly I think you could make this same topic about Adama and his principles. Though maybe not in this specific forum.Because Voyager was a show about goodies being wholesome and heroic. It was not Battlestar Galactica.
If you can't hold onto core principles in lean times, those principles aren't worth much.
Most of the crew left behind families and friends that they'd like to get back to- most of them wouldn't have been in jail long, and those without attachments back home like Suder (most likely) or Gerron...wouldn't be able to fit in at that colony. They might want to return to an area familiar to them, unless they are up to being hermit deep in the wilderness on that planet.
I think a part of B'Elanna knew she was BSing herself when she used to say she had nobody back home missing her.
That's a generalization, and would explain why 140 of the 150 Voyager crew stayed aboard, or 142, or even 145. But by laws of averages, a few of them would be expected to opt out.
I always loved "ALLIANCES", but the speech at the end was too much and unnecessary.
Chakotay was right, but the Kazon were the wrong choice. They couldn't be trusted, and their constant feuding would have put Voyager in even more danger.
The Trabe were a smart choice... until they arranged for that massacre. I actually think that failed attempt was what brought the Kazon factions together to take over Voyager at the end of the season... doesn't matter that it was entirely the Trabe. Guilty by association, plus all the technology aboard, and the fact they all hated them already was just icing on the cake.
The Nistrim didn't have THAT many ships and resources, so either they allied themselves with other small sects like the attempt in "MANEUVERS", or Culluh did to the other Majes what was unsuccessful on Sobris, and took all those ships and resources for himself to use to take the bigger prize... a Starfleet ship.
I noticed something as the show went on. The first 2 and a half years, before the Nekrit Expanse, Voyager was superior in technology than almost everyone. Only numbers put them at a disadvantage. Janeway certainly never entertained the idea of trading technology at that point.
But once past the Nekrit Expanse, and in areas of space where they were more evenly matched (like virtually everyone having transporter technology), she seemed more willing to barter.
I can understand not trading out superior tech to less developed cultures because it could to disastrous consequences. And trading tech with cultures on par or better than your own is likely more acceptable, simply because they were smart enough to still be around and not blow themselves up with it.
I point this out because it does feel like the one thing about Janeway's character that feels not only believable, but not wildly inconsistant.
(Regarding her inconsistant writing, I blame the fact that the writing staff changed a lot during those 7 years. Particularly the head writers. Even TNG had more stability once season 3 started. Hard to stay on the page when the book changes every year or so.)
That's a generalization, and would explain why 140 of the 150 Voyager crew stayed aboard, or 142, or even 145. But by laws of averages, a few of them would be expected to opt out.
I agree mostly with you. Yet on the other hand we saw very little of what the human civilization in "the 37's" looked like. It's several hundred years of divergent societal evolution, with a rather primitive time as the point of divergence
For all we know the human culture on that planet was so different from the one in the Federation and so bewildering that assimilation into it would have proven difficult and/or undesirable even for those crewmembers who wouldn't have had a problem with the idea of staying in the Delta Quadrant.
For example they might have several elements in their culture that a Federation/Earth human might find appalling.
Plus the Delta Quadrant, at least that early on, was portrayed as a rather rough and wild patch of space, so a single, fragile human civilization on a lone planet might have seemed not safe enough for people who are used to living in a huge, mostly pacified empire.
Did Harry or Tal Celes expect to be on Voyager for a year or two before being assigned somewhere else?
For all we know the human culture on that planet was so different from the one in the Federation and so bewildering that assimilation into it would have proven difficult and/or undesirable even for those crewmembers who wouldn't have had a problem with the idea of staying in the Delta Quadrant.
For example they might have several elements in their culture that a Federation/Earth human might find appalling.
I always loved "ALLIANCES", but the speech at the end was too much and unnecessary.
Chakotay was right, but the Kazon were the wrong choice. They couldn't be trusted, and their constant feuding would have put Voyager in even more danger.
The Trabe were a smart choice... until they arranged for that massacre. I actually think that failed attempt was what brought the Kazon factions together to take over Voyager at the end of the season... doesn't matter that it was entirely the Trabe. Guilty by association, plus all the technology aboard, and the fact they all hated them already was just icing on the cake.
The Nistrim didn't have THAT many ships and resources, so either they allied themselves with other small sects like the attempt in "MANEUVERS", or Culluh did to the other Majes what was unsuccessful on Sobris, and took all those ships and resources for himself to use to take the bigger prize... a Starfleet ship.
I noticed something as the show went on. The first 2 and a half years, before the Nekrit Expanse, Voyager was superior in technology than almost everyone. Only numbers put them at a disadvantage. Janeway certainly never entertained the idea of trading technology at that point.
But once past the Nekrit Expanse, and in areas of space where they were more evenly matched (like virtually everyone having transporter technology), she seemed more willing to barter.
I can understand not trading out superior tech to less developed cultures because it could to disastrous consequences. And trading tech with cultures on par or better than your own is likely more acceptable, simply because they were smart enough to still be around and not blow themselves up with it.
I point this out because it does feel like the one thing about Janeway's character that feels not only believable, but not wildly inconsistant.
(Regarding her inconsistant writing, I blame the fact that the writing staff changed a lot during those 7 years. Particularly the head writers. Even TNG had more stability once season 3 started. Hard to stay on the page when the book changes every year or so.)
I must admit that sometimes I find Janeway's Starfleet priciples obsession a bit rigid.
OK, in order to keep some sort of discipline on the ship and in order to focus on the main goal which was to get back home, I guess that the idea of a Starfleet crew was correct.
But trying to make the Maquis members perfect Starfleet role models, like in the otherwise great episode Learning Curve was a bit over the top.
I actually think that Chakotay was right in the episode Alliances when he proposed a more Maquis-oriented strategy for the ship and the crew. Unfortunately it didn't work out in that episode.
As for that episode, it's great and I really like it, except for janeway's speech about Federation principles at the end. It was actually a little pathetic, especially considering what happened later when they became stranded on the planet Hanon IV in Basics.
I never wrote that Janeway was "psycho rigid".Let's not forget that Kathryn Janeway has been "bathed" with Starfleet principles and the Federation's rules and practical uses /work since her earliest childhood with her father she loved and admired er father so, it is not so surprising that she let herself guided her conduct on Starflleet principles. You say, Lynx that Janeway is psycho rigid, well, I'd say that she perfectly played to never exceed the limits and when she was touching the red line and when she was on the verge to reach the red line, she knew that her old friend, Tuvok, and her First Offiicer, Chakotay, would warn and stop her in time, with more or less diplomacy. That being said, according to the situation of Voyager, blocked in an Universe full of unknown aliens, Starfleet and the Federation became her compass to try to continue to control what could still be, at least for her.
I never wrote that Janeway was "psycho rigid".
Only that she was a bit over the top in her "Starfleet speech" at the end.
I can understand her dedication to Starfleet afer being brought up in a Starfleet family and due to her carreer in Starfleet. I can also understand her actions in this episode.
My only complaint is that there were situations in which bending the rules a bit could have been the right thing to do and in fact, she actually did that in some episodes as well.
Hunger never seemed to be an issue on Voyager.
I must admit that sometimes I find Janeway's Starfleet priciples obsession a bit rigid.
OK, in order to keep some sort of discipline on the ship and in order to focus on the main goal which was to get back home, I guess that the idea of a Starfleet crew was correct.
But trying to make the Maquis members perfect Starfleet role models, like in the otherwise great episode Learning Curve was a bit over the top.
I actually think that Chakotay was right in the episode Alliances when he proposed a more Maquis-oriented strategy for the ship and the crew. Unfortunately it didn't work out in that episode.
As for that episode, it's great and I really like it, except for janeway's speech about Federation principles at the end. It was actually a little pathetic, especially considering what happened later when they became stranded on the planet Hanon IV in Basics.
Depends on how you define hunger.
In the early season 1, the crew was mostly relying on rations to keep them going... until Kes started the airponics bay and Neelix began cooking for the crew.
At that point, the ration packs were merged with the cooking to alleviate the shortages until the airponics was able to provide for all of the crew mostly - and of course, in later seasons, VOY didn't have to conserve as much power for the replicators so they began more regularly replicating stuff.
Let's not forget that the Maqui were originally Federation citizens who separated from the Federation WILLINGLY back in TNG (they were given a chance to be relocated, and they refused).
With UFP not wanting to escalate matters with the Cardassians, this was the compromise.
Turning them into 'perfect' SF role models was never the goal... however, given the fact the Maqui were ex UFP citizens, they knew what SF was about and how it conducted itself... and also what to expect from them.
Granted, I do think Janeway and Chakotay should have made more accommodations for the Maqui in that regard to integrate them better into VOY given the fact they never went through the academy.
I liked Janeway's speech about UFP principles at the end. I don't think it was pathetic at all... it showed Janeway's conviction on staying close to UFP principles and ideals (unlike the crew of the Equinox).
I do think that 'Alliances' was a great episode... and it was a shame that nothing came out of these talks... but in fairness, the Trabe DID try to murder all the Kazon leaders, so in essence, the Trabe sabotaged this prospect.
Bending some rules when necessary, she did it sometimes, you're right but not too many so that it does not become a habit. Starfleet wouldn't have forgiven Janeway, especially according to her family pedigree, no matter the circonstances (rules and protocols are there exist for a reason (to help, protect and guide Starfleet officers in their missions despite difficult circonstances) but still worse, Janeway would never have forgiven herself because it would have been contrary to her policy and state of mind. This is what differentiated her from Chakotay, who had no problem to break rules and protocols if he thought it necessary (= if his conscience dictated to him) but let's be honest, in doing that, he sometimes got himself into trouble and he was lucky to have Janeway letting things go because sometimes, he was at the limit of Starfleet's standards, what for a First Officer, was problematic In accepting Janeway's offer for him and his crew to join Voyager, he, in full knowledge, accepted to submit to Starfleet and the Federation rules in exchange for a more comfortable life but clearly, he took some liberties and sometimes, it put Voyager and endangered the ship and some crew members, while for Janeway, in general, her choices her calculated..
Chakotay was very much a Starfleet officer. That's why he was able to reintegrate as easy as he was. He was also a natural leader, which is why his crew followed his lead in that regard.
I agree mostly with you. Yet on the other hand we saw very little of what the human civilization in "the 37's" looked like. It's several hundred years of divergent societal evolution, with a rather primitive time as the point of divergence
For all we know the human culture on that planet was so different from the one in the Federation and so bewildering that assimilation into it would have proven difficult and/or undesirable even for those crewmembers who wouldn't have had a problem with the idea of staying in the Delta Quadrant.
For example they might have several elements in their culture that a Federation/Earth human might find appalling.
CHAKOTAY: Is something wrong, Captain? You've seemed a little distracted ever since we came back from the cities. Weren't you impressed?
JANEWAY: A little too impressed.
CHAKOTAY: What do you mean?
JANEWAY: There's a thriving, sophisticated culture on this planet. Of human beings. In someways walking around those cities was almost like being back on Earth.
CHAKOTAY: It was a little eerie. It reminded me of home, too.
That's a generalization, and would explain why 140 of the 150 Voyager crew stayed aboard, or 142, or even 145. But by laws of averages, a few of them would be expected to opt out.
I think that in general, Starfleet is a series of assignments. These assignments vary in level of responsibility, and sometimes but not always come with a change in rank. Figuring that Harry Kim was a highly competent officer with operations experience and command potential, his career would have involved steadily increasing rank and responsibility; it might have looked something like this:
2371 - Graduates from academy. Commissioned as ensign, assigned to USS Voyager as operations officer.
2373 - Promoted to LTJG, assigned to Starbase Q13, operations division.
2374 - Promoted to Lieutenant, assigned to USS Titan, deputy operations officer.
2377 - Promoted to LCDR, remains on Titan as chief of operations and second officer.
2379 - Remains LCDR, but puts on a red uniform. Reassigned to USS Melbourne as first officer.
2381 - Promoted to Commander, reassigned to USS Odyssey as first officer.
2384 - Promoted to Captain, given command of USS Rhode Island.
KIM: Bridge duty. I've got eight hours ahead of me.
NEELIX: Sitting in the big chair again?
KIM: Fourth night in a row.
PARIS: You're not fooling anyone.
KIM: Excuse me?
PARIS: You love these night shifts. Your chance to play Captain.
KIM: I'm not playing. This is an opportunity to get command experience. You might put in for some yourself.
PARIS: Oh, what's the point of trying to compete with an ambitious upstart like you? Just promise me one thing. When you reach the top, you'll remember all the little people you climbed over to get there. You won't make them work night shifts?
In fact, I do agree with mosty of what you have written here.
When it comes to the Hydroponics bay, the food problem and how it so mysteriously was "solved" in later seasons, I won't go into that now because I consider that lousy writing and an stupid attempt from the "writers" to make us all forget that Kes ever was on the ship-until they decided to finally humiliate and destroy the character in "That episode" in season 6.
As for the Maquis problem, personally I think it was bad politics from the UFP, very similar to what the UK and France did during the Sudetenland crisis in 1938.
in fact, the actions from the UFP reminded a lot of how the UK and France tried to pacify Hitler by giving him everything he wanted-and got the war as a result for that.
The Federation abandoned their colonists in order to please the Cardassians and got the Maquis uprising as a result of that.
The Federation almost risked a total war with their long-time and most powerful ally, the Klingons in order to please the Cardassians.
And how did the cardassians thank them? By joining the Dominion and together with them almost destroying the Federation.
Note that I don't write this to argue with you or question your comments, I'm just stating it as a matter of fact.
I agree with you that Janeway and Chakotay should have made more accommodations for the Maqui in that regard to integrate them better into VOY given the fact they never went through the academy. It would have been the best way to integrate them in the crew. And I never understood the point with those "special rank pins" for the maquis members of the crew. In that case it would have been better to install them all as a "special force" on board the ship with their own uniforms.
As for the speech, I do find it a bit over the top. Not so much the meaning of it and what she said but the performance itself and how she delivered the message. It did come out as a bit hysterical in the ongoing situation.
Actually I like Janeway. She's one of my favorites in the show (after Kes, Chakotay and Paris). I agree with most of her decisions but there are certain episodes and books in which I would have done something different. I might take it up in the future..
Yes, he was smart enough to realize that the only way for his maquis crew to come home was with Voyager and he did what he did because of that. Most of his crew did realize it too and their respect for Chakotay's leadership was such that they did follow him.
Actually I like Janeway. She's one of my favorites in the show (after Kes, Chakotay and Paris). I agree with most of her decisions but there are certain episodes and books in which I would have done something different. I might take it up in the future..
Well, it's Janeway we're talking about. She's so awesome, the law of averages (or any laws of mathematics or physics) can take
One of the biggest problems is the writers never iserting a few seconds of dialogue occasionally into episodes such as say: 'We've assembled team for creating new torpedoes and shuttles' for example.
Or, Janeway could have mentioned in one of her logs that when stopping in some star systems, the crew managed to collect solar power from local stars to power the replicators and create needed supplies in bulk (such as ration packs, spare parts, etc.)
We also know VOY was trading for various resources with other species, but initially in its journey, the crew mostly tried mining some resources from other star system (which was mentioned)... so it probably also salvaged any downed shuttles (at least those not blown to bits) off screen, and reconstruct them.
Something tells me it would have been better off if his character was killed off for good when VOY was split into two (the episode when Samantha Wildman gave birth to Naomi) and Kim was sucked out of that hull breach.
More screen time could have been given to Kes in turn.
Plus, his lack of rank advancement showed a real issue. The writers should have at least promoted him at some point in Season 4 or 5.
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