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Janeway and Starfleet

I always loved "ALLIANCES", but the speech at the end was too much and unnecessary.

Chakotay was right, but the Kazon were the wrong choice. They couldn't be trusted, and their constant feuding would have put Voyager in even more danger.

The Trabe were a smart choice... until they arranged for that massacre. I actually think that failed attempt was what brought the Kazon factions together to take over Voyager at the end of the season... doesn't matter that it was entirely the Trabe. Guilty by association, plus all the technology aboard, and the fact they all hated them already was just icing on the cake.

The Nistrim didn't have THAT many ships and resources, so either they allied themselves with other small sects like the attempt in "MANEUVERS", or Culluh did to the other Majes what was unsuccessful on Sobris, and took all those ships and resources for himself to use to take the bigger prize... a Starfleet ship.


I noticed something as the show went on. The first 2 and a half years, before the Nekrit Expanse, Voyager was superior in technology than almost everyone. Only numbers put them at a disadvantage. Janeway certainly never entertained the idea of trading technology at that point.

But once past the Nekrit Expanse, and in areas of space where they were more evenly matched (like virtually everyone having transporter technology), she seemed more willing to barter.

I can understand not trading out superior tech to less developed cultures because it could to disastrous consequences. And trading tech with cultures on par or better than your own is likely more acceptable, simply because they were smart enough to still be around and not blow themselves up with it.

I point this out because it does feel like the one thing about Janeway's character that feels not only believable, but not wildly inconsistant.

(Regarding her inconsistant writing, I blame the fact that the writing staff changed a lot during those 7 years. Particularly the head writers. Even TNG had more stability once season 3 started. Hard to stay on the page when the book changes every year or so.)
 
If you can't hold onto core principles in lean times, those principles aren't worth much.

That is why 'The Void' is one of my favourite episodes. I thought Kirk would do the same thing too and I liked that. Also the aliens who communicated using music were pretty cool.

Most of the crew left behind families and friends that they'd like to get back to- most of them wouldn't have been in jail long, and those without attachments back home like Suder (most likely) or Gerron...wouldn't be able to fit in at that colony. They might want to return to an area familiar to them, unless they are up to being hermit deep in the wilderness on that planet.

I think a part of B'Elanna knew she was BSing herself when she used to say she had nobody back home missing her.

Totally agree - B'Elanna got in touch with her cousin in season 7. I wonder how long a tour on Voyager was supposed to be. Did Harry or Tal Celes expect to be on Voyager for a year or two before being assigned somewhere else?

That's a generalization, and would explain why 140 of the 150 Voyager crew stayed aboard, or 142, or even 145. But by laws of averages, a few of them would be expected to opt out.

I wouldn't expect anyone to want to leave Voyager after a year because they all still believe they will get home soon. Seska did leave because she had to and Jonas might have left if he'd lived longer. By season 3, Voyager is its own community. If anyone left they would be accepting that they would never get home and they wouldn't be able to get back to Voyager if after a few months they decided they didn't like the culture they were living in after leaving the ship. The Talaxians were probably the nicest spacefaring culture Voyager met more than once but they seemed fairly nomadic so not great if you wanted to live on a planet. I wonder how technologically advanced the Talaxians were?

I always loved "ALLIANCES", but the speech at the end was too much and unnecessary.

Chakotay was right, but the Kazon were the wrong choice. They couldn't be trusted, and their constant feuding would have put Voyager in even more danger.

The Trabe were a smart choice... until they arranged for that massacre. I actually think that failed attempt was what brought the Kazon factions together to take over Voyager at the end of the season... doesn't matter that it was entirely the Trabe. Guilty by association, plus all the technology aboard, and the fact they all hated them already was just icing on the cake.

The Nistrim didn't have THAT many ships and resources, so either they allied themselves with other small sects like the attempt in "MANEUVERS", or Culluh did to the other Majes what was unsuccessful on Sobris, and took all those ships and resources for himself to use to take the bigger prize... a Starfleet ship.

Yes. I liked the speech at the end of "Alliances" because you can see from everyone's faces that Janeway is the only person who believes what she's saying.

I noticed something as the show went on. The first 2 and a half years, before the Nekrit Expanse, Voyager was superior in technology than almost everyone. Only numbers put them at a disadvantage. Janeway certainly never entertained the idea of trading technology at that point.

But once past the Nekrit Expanse, and in areas of space where they were more evenly matched (like virtually everyone having transporter technology), she seemed more willing to barter.

I can understand not trading out superior tech to less developed cultures because it could to disastrous consequences. And trading tech with cultures on par or better than your own is likely more acceptable, simply because they were smart enough to still be around and not blow themselves up with it.

I point this out because it does feel like the one thing about Janeway's character that feels not only believable, but not wildly inconsistant.

(Regarding her inconsistant writing, I blame the fact that the writing staff changed a lot during those 7 years. Particularly the head writers. Even TNG had more stability once season 3 started. Hard to stay on the page when the book changes every year or so.)

I hadn't considered that. It bothered me that Janeway was willing to give holotech to the Hirogen when it was such an important part of the first two season that she wasn't willing to give food replicators to the Kazon. But what you say makes total sense.
 
That's a generalization, and would explain why 140 of the 150 Voyager crew stayed aboard, or 142, or even 145. But by laws of averages, a few of them would be expected to opt out.

I agree mostly with you. Yet on the other hand we saw very little of what the human civilization in "the 37's" looked like. It's several hundred years of divergent societal evolution, with a rather primitive time as the point of divergence
For all we know the human culture on that planet was so different from the one in the Federation and so bewildering that assimilation into it would have proven difficult and/or undesirable even for those crewmembers who wouldn't have had a problem with the idea of staying in the Delta Quadrant.
For example they might have several elements in their culture that a Federation/Earth human might find appalling.

Plus the Delta Quadrant, at least that early on, was portrayed as a rather rough and wild patch of space, so a single, fragile human civilization on a lone planet might have seemed not safe enough for people who are used to living in a huge, mostly pacified empire.
 
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I agree mostly with you. Yet on the other hand we saw very little of what the human civilization in "the 37's" looked like. It's several hundred years of divergent societal evolution, with a rather primitive time as the point of divergence
For all we know the human culture on that planet was so different from the one in the Federation and so bewildering that assimilation into it would have proven difficult and/or undesirable even for those crewmembers who wouldn't have had a problem with the idea of staying in the Delta Quadrant.
For example they might have several elements in their culture that a Federation/Earth human might find appalling.

Plus the Delta Quadrant, at least that early on, was portrayed as a rather rough and wild patch of space, so a single, fragile human civilization on a lone planet might have seemed not safe enough for people who are used to living in a huge, mostly pacified empire.

The Maquis were originally Green Acres in Space.

Space Acres?

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Did Harry or Tal Celes expect to be on Voyager for a year or two before being assigned somewhere else?

I think that in general, Starfleet is a series of assignments. These assignments vary in level of responsibility, and sometimes but not always come with a change in rank. Figuring that Harry Kim was a highly competent officer with operations experience and command potential, his career would have involved steadily increasing rank and responsibility; it might have looked something like this:
2371 - Graduates from academy. Commissioned as ensign, assigned to USS Voyager as operations officer.
2373 - Promoted to LTJG, assigned to Starbase Q13, operations division.
2374 - Promoted to Lieutenant, assigned to USS Titan, deputy operations officer.
2377 - Promoted to LCDR, remains on Titan as chief of operations and second officer.
2379 - Remains LCDR, but puts on a red uniform. Reassigned to USS Melbourne as first officer.
2381 - Promoted to Commander, reassigned to USS Odyssey as first officer.
2384 - Promoted to Captain, given command of USS Rhode Island.
 
Maybe if he'd spent the previous eight years in multiple assignments with gradually increasing levels of responsibility, he would have picked up the skills he lacked.

Or maybe, "Nightingale" was for him what "Homeward" was for Picard, "Let him who is Without Sin" was for Worf, and "Galaxy's Child" was for Geordi... character assassination.

Pick one.
 
For all we know the human culture on that planet was so different from the one in the Federation and so bewildering that assimilation into it would have proven difficult and/or undesirable even for those crewmembers who wouldn't have had a problem with the idea of staying in the Delta Quadrant.
For example they might have several elements in their culture that a Federation/Earth human might find appalling.

If they had provided an explanation in that regard, it could have worked. But as far as we know, they didn't go there. The choices apparently offered were (1) live out your days in a secure, flourishing human colony in the Delta Quadrant, or (2) try to survive a perilous 70-year journey through who knows what, but it probably includes Borg, Kazon, and Vidiians, with an excessively cheerful bar rodent as your chef. Oh, and Maquis, you're in Starfleet now, deal with it.

And 0 out of 150 choose Option 1. Yeah. Right.
........................................
But really, this is a symptom of a greater issue: the Janeway is Awesome trope. Consider:
In "Tuvix", Janeway makes a decision that could be considered tantamount to murder. Does anyone even question her?
In "Resolutions", the whole crew sinks into the depths of despair because they had to leave Janeway behind.
In "Alliances", the problem has not been solved, but Janeway gives a speech about Federation values that's supposed to make it OK that the Kazon are well on their way to chewing Voyager into titanium confetti.
I'm thankful for Seska and Jonas. At least there were two people on the ship who didn't drink the Janeway koolaid.
 
I always loved "ALLIANCES", but the speech at the end was too much and unnecessary.

Chakotay was right, but the Kazon were the wrong choice. They couldn't be trusted, and their constant feuding would have put Voyager in even more danger.

The Trabe were a smart choice... until they arranged for that massacre. I actually think that failed attempt was what brought the Kazon factions together to take over Voyager at the end of the season... doesn't matter that it was entirely the Trabe. Guilty by association, plus all the technology aboard, and the fact they all hated them already was just icing on the cake.

The Nistrim didn't have THAT many ships and resources, so either they allied themselves with other small sects like the attempt in "MANEUVERS", or Culluh did to the other Majes what was unsuccessful on Sobris, and took all those ships and resources for himself to use to take the bigger prize... a Starfleet ship.


I noticed something as the show went on. The first 2 and a half years, before the Nekrit Expanse, Voyager was superior in technology than almost everyone. Only numbers put them at a disadvantage. Janeway certainly never entertained the idea of trading technology at that point.

But once past the Nekrit Expanse, and in areas of space where they were more evenly matched (like virtually everyone having transporter technology), she seemed more willing to barter.

I can understand not trading out superior tech to less developed cultures because it could to disastrous consequences. And trading tech with cultures on par or better than your own is likely more acceptable, simply because they were smart enough to still be around and not blow themselves up with it.

I point this out because it does feel like the one thing about Janeway's character that feels not only believable, but not wildly inconsistant.

(Regarding her inconsistant writing, I blame the fact that the writing staff changed a lot during those 7 years. Particularly the head writers. Even TNG had more stability once season 3 started. Hard to stay on the page when the book changes every year or so.)

I totally agree here when it comes to Chakotay's standpoint in Alliances.

Chakotay was right when he tought that Voyager should use more Maquis methods in order to survive in the Delta Quadrant. I can agree with Janeway that they shouldn't abandon the Starfleet priciples totally but maybe bend the rules a bit.

Therefore it surprises me when Janeway accepted Torres's suggestion or whatever, that they should contact Seska. Did Janeway want Chakotay's idea to fail? Why else did she agree to that suggestion? The Kazon-Nistrim was the last possible ally they should ever consider. Culluh showed his contempt for Janeway already from the start and Seska would definitely use all opportunities to take control over the ship during a possible alliance with the Nistrim.

In fact, any Kazon sect would have been a better option, even the Kazon-Ogla.

Then the Trabe show up and all of a sudden, Voyager seem to have a real friend who is also committed to peace and would have Voyager's help to set up a peace conference. Janeway buys all of that and ends up terribly disappointed when the Trabes real intention shows up. She get's real p***ed off, which is understandable and tell the Trabe to take a permanent vacation in a hot place which is also understandable.

Then she comes up with that naive speech about Starfleet principles which in a way almost ruins one of the best Star Trek Voyager episodes. The whole speech is silly, almost hysterical and reminds me of a speech which a certain boss at one of the places where I once worked came up with in a crisis situation, a speech which I to this day still finds totally silly and inappropriate for the situation.

And every time I watch this episode, the little cynic spirit on my shoulder starts to whisper in my ear: "Now what would YOU have done!"

Well, i must admit that an alliance with the Trabe at that point would have disgusted me as well.

But if we should be realistic and a bit cynical just for one moment and ask the question: "What were Janeway's options? What would have been the right thing to do?

Wiping out the whole Kazon leadership would have made the leading Kazon sects crippled, at least for the coming Earth months. Protected by the Trabe, Voyager could have used that time to get out of Kazon space, finally lost the revenge-seeking Nistrim with Seska and by doing so avoided the deaths of Hogan and Suder and Jonas's betrayal.

if we look at world history, there have been times when "the good guys" have cooperated with "bad guys" in order to thwart a common enemy. Especially in WWII when the US and the UK teamed up with Stalin who was as bad or even worse than Hitler, in order to crush Hitler and Nazi-Germany.

That succeded as we know, but the leaders in the US and the UK had to pay a price and live with the consequences of selling out Eastern Europe to Stalin and his henchmen. For the people in Eastern Europe, there were no liberation, just a switch from one brutal occupation to another.

So maybe Janeway was right in some way after all, despite the silly speech which she could have spared us from. Anyway, she could at least sleep well, knowing that she stopped what the Trabe had planned.

Not to mention that if she hadn't, we would have lost the Basics episodes, two of the best ever in Star Trek Voyager! :techman:
 
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I must admit that sometimes I find Janeway's Starfleet priciples obsession a bit rigid.

OK, in order to keep some sort of discipline on the ship and in order to focus on the main goal which was to get back home, I guess that the idea of a Starfleet crew was correct.

But trying to make the Maquis members perfect Starfleet role models, like in the otherwise great episode Learning Curve was a bit over the top.

I actually think that Chakotay was right in the episode Alliances when he proposed a more Maquis-oriented strategy for the ship and the crew. Unfortunately it didn't work out in that episode.

As for that episode, it's great and I really like it, except for janeway's speech about Federation principles at the end. It was actually a little pathetic, especially considering what happened later when they became stranded on the planet Hanon IV in Basics.

Let's not forget that Kathryn Janeway has been "bathed" with Starfleet principles and the Federation's rules and practical uses /work since her earliest childhood with her father she loved and admired er father so, it is not so surprising that she let herself guided her conduct on Starflleet principles. You say, Lynx that Janeway is psycho rigid, well, I'd say that she perfectly played to never exceed the limits and when she was touching the red line and when she was on the verge to reach the red line, she knew that her old friend, Tuvok, and her First Offiicer, Chakotay, would warn and stop her in time, with more or less diplomacy. That being said, according to the situation of Voyager, blocked in an Universe full of unknown aliens, Starfleet and the Federation became her compass to try to continue to control what could still be, at least for her.
 
Let's not forget that Kathryn Janeway has been "bathed" with Starfleet principles and the Federation's rules and practical uses /work since her earliest childhood with her father she loved and admired er father so, it is not so surprising that she let herself guided her conduct on Starflleet principles. You say, Lynx that Janeway is psycho rigid, well, I'd say that she perfectly played to never exceed the limits and when she was touching the red line and when she was on the verge to reach the red line, she knew that her old friend, Tuvok, and her First Offiicer, Chakotay, would warn and stop her in time, with more or less diplomacy. That being said, according to the situation of Voyager, blocked in an Universe full of unknown aliens, Starfleet and the Federation became her compass to try to continue to control what could still be, at least for her.
I never wrote that Janeway was "psycho rigid".
Only that she was a bit over the top in her "Starfleet speech" at the end.
I can understand her dedication to Starfleet afer being brought up in a Starfleet family and due to her carreer in Starfleet. I can also understand her actions in this episode.
My only complaint is that there were situations in which bending the rules a bit could have been the right thing to do and in fact, she actually did that in some episodes as well.
 
I never wrote that Janeway was "psycho rigid".
Only that she was a bit over the top in her "Starfleet speech" at the end.
I can understand her dedication to Starfleet afer being brought up in a Starfleet family and due to her carreer in Starfleet. I can also understand her actions in this episode.
My only complaint is that there were situations in which bending the rules a bit could have been the right thing to do and in fact, she actually did that in some episodes as well.

Bending some rules when necessary, she did it sometimes, you're right but not too many so that it does not become a habit. Starfleet wouldn't have forgiven Janeway, especially according to her family pedigree, no matter the circonstances (rules and protocols are there exist for a reason (to help, protect and guide Starfleet officers in their missions despite difficult circonstances) but still worse, Janeway would never have forgiven herself because it would have been contrary to her policy and state of mind. This is what differentiated her from Chakotay, who had no problem to break rules and protocols if he thought it necessary (= if his conscience dictated to him) but let's be honest, in doing that, he sometimes got himself into trouble and he was lucky to have Janeway letting things go because sometimes, he was at the limit of Starfleet's standards, what for a First Officer, was problematic In accepting Janeway's offer for him and his crew to join Voyager, he, in full knowledge, accepted to submit to Starfleet and the Federation rules in exchange for a more comfortable life but clearly, he took some liberties and sometimes, it put Voyager and endangered the ship and some crew members, while for Janeway, in general, her choices her calculated..
 
Chakotay was very much a Starfleet officer. That's why he was able to reintegrate as easy as he was. He was also a natural leader, which is why his crew followed his lead in that regard.
 
Hunger never seemed to be an issue on Voyager.

Depends on how you define hunger.
In the early season 1, the crew was mostly relying on rations to keep them going... until Kes started the airponics bay and Neelix began cooking for the crew.
At that point, the ration packs were merged with the cooking to alleviate the shortages until the airponics was able to provide for all of the crew mostly - and of course, in later seasons, VOY didn't have to conserve as much power for the replicators so they began more regularly replicating stuff.


I must admit that sometimes I find Janeway's Starfleet priciples obsession a bit rigid.

OK, in order to keep some sort of discipline on the ship and in order to focus on the main goal which was to get back home, I guess that the idea of a Starfleet crew was correct.

But trying to make the Maquis members perfect Starfleet role models, like in the otherwise great episode Learning Curve was a bit over the top.

Let's not forget that the Maqui were originally Federation citizens who separated from the Federation WILLINGLY back in TNG (they were given a chance to be relocated, and they refused).
With UFP not wanting to escalate matters with the Cardassians, this was the compromise.

Turning them into 'perfect' SF role models was never the goal... however, given the fact the Maqui were ex UFP citizens, they knew what SF was about and how it conducted itself... and also what to expect from them.

Granted, I do think Janeway and Chakotay should have made more accommodations for the Maqui in that regard to integrate them better into VOY given the fact they never went through the academy.

I actually think that Chakotay was right in the episode Alliances when he proposed a more Maquis-oriented strategy for the ship and the crew. Unfortunately it didn't work out in that episode.

As for that episode, it's great and I really like it, except for janeway's speech about Federation principles at the end. It was actually a little pathetic, especially considering what happened later when they became stranded on the planet Hanon IV in Basics.

I liked Janeway's speech about UFP principles at the end. I don't think it was pathetic at all... it showed Janeway's conviction on staying close to UFP principles and ideals (unlike the crew of the Equinox).

I do think that 'Alliances' was a great episode... and it was a shame that nothing came out of these talks... but in fairness, the Trabe DID try to murder all the Kazon leaders, so in essence, the Trabe sabotaged this prospect.
 
Depends on how you define hunger.
In the early season 1, the crew was mostly relying on rations to keep them going... until Kes started the airponics bay and Neelix began cooking for the crew.
At that point, the ration packs were merged with the cooking to alleviate the shortages until the airponics was able to provide for all of the crew mostly - and of course, in later seasons, VOY didn't have to conserve as much power for the replicators so they began more regularly replicating stuff.

Let's not forget that the Maqui were originally Federation citizens who separated from the Federation WILLINGLY back in TNG (they were given a chance to be relocated, and they refused).
With UFP not wanting to escalate matters with the Cardassians, this was the compromise.

Turning them into 'perfect' SF role models was never the goal... however, given the fact the Maqui were ex UFP citizens, they knew what SF was about and how it conducted itself... and also what to expect from them.

Granted, I do think Janeway and Chakotay should have made more accommodations for the Maqui in that regard to integrate them better into VOY given the fact they never went through the academy.


I liked Janeway's speech about UFP principles at the end. I don't think it was pathetic at all... it showed Janeway's conviction on staying close to UFP principles and ideals (unlike the crew of the Equinox).

I do think that 'Alliances' was a great episode... and it was a shame that nothing came out of these talks... but in fairness, the Trabe DID try to murder all the Kazon leaders, so in essence, the Trabe sabotaged this prospect.

In fact, I do agree with mosty of what you have written here.

When it comes to the Hydroponics bay, the food problem and how it so mysteriously was "solved" in later seasons, I won't go into that now because I consider that lousy writing and an stupid attempt from the "writers" to make us all forget that Kes ever was on the ship-until they decided to finally humiliate and destroy the character in "That episode" in season 6.

As for the Maquis problem, personally I think it was bad politics from the UFP, very similar to what the UK and France did during the Sudetenland crisis in 1938.

in fact, the actions from the UFP reminded a lot of how the UK and France tried to pacify Hitler by giving him everything he wanted-and got the war as a result for that.

The Federation abandoned their colonists in order to please the Cardassians and got the Maquis uprising as a result of that.

The Federation almost risked a total war with their long-time and most powerful ally, the Klingons in order to please the Cardassians.

And how did the cardassians thank them? By joining the Dominion and together with them almost destroying the Federation.

Note that I don't write this to argue with you or question your comments, I'm just stating it as a matter of fact.

I agree with you that Janeway and Chakotay should have made more accommodations for the Maqui in that regard to integrate them better into VOY given the fact they never went through the academy. It would have been the best way to integrate them in the crew. And I never understood the point with those "special rank pins" for the maquis members of the crew. In that case it would have been better to install them all as a "special force" on board the ship with their own uniforms.

As for the speech, I do find it a bit over the top. Not so much the meaning of it and what she said but the performance itself and how she delivered the message. It did come out as a bit hysterical in the ongoing situation.

Bending some rules when necessary, she did it sometimes, you're right but not too many so that it does not become a habit. Starfleet wouldn't have forgiven Janeway, especially according to her family pedigree, no matter the circonstances (rules and protocols are there exist for a reason (to help, protect and guide Starfleet officers in their missions despite difficult circonstances) but still worse, Janeway would never have forgiven herself because it would have been contrary to her policy and state of mind. This is what differentiated her from Chakotay, who had no problem to break rules and protocols if he thought it necessary (= if his conscience dictated to him) but let's be honest, in doing that, he sometimes got himself into trouble and he was lucky to have Janeway letting things go because sometimes, he was at the limit of Starfleet's standards, what for a First Officer, was problematic In accepting Janeway's offer for him and his crew to join Voyager, he, in full knowledge, accepted to submit to Starfleet and the Federation rules in exchange for a more comfortable life but clearly, he took some liberties and sometimes, it put Voyager and endangered the ship and some crew members, while for Janeway, in general, her choices her calculated..

Actually I like Janeway. She's one of my favorites in the show (after Kes, Chakotay and Paris). I agree with most of her decisions but there are certain episodes and books in which I would have done something different. I might take it up in the future..

Chakotay was very much a Starfleet officer. That's why he was able to reintegrate as easy as he was. He was also a natural leader, which is why his crew followed his lead in that regard.

Yes, he was smart enough to realize that the only way for his maquis crew to come home was with Voyager and he did what he did because of that. Most of his crew did realize it too and their respect for Chakotay's leadership was such that they did follow him.
 
I agree mostly with you. Yet on the other hand we saw very little of what the human civilization in "the 37's" looked like. It's several hundred years of divergent societal evolution, with a rather primitive time as the point of divergence
For all we know the human culture on that planet was so different from the one in the Federation and so bewildering that assimilation into it would have proven difficult and/or undesirable even for those crewmembers who wouldn't have had a problem with the idea of staying in the Delta Quadrant.
For example they might have several elements in their culture that a Federation/Earth human might find appalling.

Problem is that there is very little in the script to support that. It rather seems to suggest the opposite, just before the 'perhaps some people would like to stay here' comes up.

CHAKOTAY: Is something wrong, Captain? You've seemed a little distracted ever since we came back from the cities. Weren't you impressed?
JANEWAY: A little too impressed.
CHAKOTAY: What do you mean?
JANEWAY: There's a thriving, sophisticated culture on this planet. Of human beings. In someways walking around those cities was almost like being back on Earth.
CHAKOTAY: It was a little eerie. It reminded me of home, too.

Had there been any appalling elements to their culture, I'd expect them to be almost certainly mentioned at this point ('even though I really didn't like their ....'), but they aren't.

That's a generalization, and would explain why 140 of the 150 Voyager crew stayed aboard, or 142, or even 145. But by laws of averages, a few of them would be expected to opt out.

Well, it's Janeway we're talking about. She's so awesome, the law of averages (or any laws of mathematics or physics) can take a hike when it serves her.

I think that in general, Starfleet is a series of assignments. These assignments vary in level of responsibility, and sometimes but not always come with a change in rank. Figuring that Harry Kim was a highly competent officer with operations experience and command potential, his career would have involved steadily increasing rank and responsibility; it might have looked something like this:
2371 - Graduates from academy. Commissioned as ensign, assigned to USS Voyager as operations officer.
2373 - Promoted to LTJG, assigned to Starbase Q13, operations division.
2374 - Promoted to Lieutenant, assigned to USS Titan, deputy operations officer.
2377 - Promoted to LCDR, remains on Titan as chief of operations and second officer.
2379 - Remains LCDR, but puts on a red uniform. Reassigned to USS Melbourne as first officer.
2381 - Promoted to Commander, reassigned to USS Odyssey as first officer.
2384 - Promoted to Captain, given command of USS Rhode Island.

Recently came across this dialog of Warhead

KIM: Bridge duty. I've got eight hours ahead of me.
NEELIX: Sitting in the big chair again?
KIM: Fourth night in a row.
PARIS: You're not fooling anyone.
KIM: Excuse me?
PARIS: You love these night shifts. Your chance to play Captain.
KIM: I'm not playing. This is an opportunity to get command experience. You might put in for some yourself.
PARIS: Oh, what's the point of trying to compete with an ambitious upstart like you? Just promise me one thing. When you reach the top, you'll remember all the little people you climbed over to get there. You won't make them work night shifts?

Which sounds outright bizarre, given that this is a late 5th season episode, when it was already quite clear Ensign Kim wouldn't go anywhere, rank-wise. Is Tom mocking him here?
 
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In fact, I do agree with mosty of what you have written here.

When it comes to the Hydroponics bay, the food problem and how it so mysteriously was "solved" in later seasons, I won't go into that now because I consider that lousy writing and an stupid attempt from the "writers" to make us all forget that Kes ever was on the ship-until they decided to finally humiliate and destroy the character in "That episode" in season 6.

As much as I prefer VOY to most other Trek series, I do know it has its flaws.
One of the biggest problems is the writers never iserting a few seconds of dialogue occasionally into episodes such as say: 'We've assembled team for creating new torpedoes and shuttles' for example.
Or, Janeway could have mentioned in one of her logs that when stopping in some star systems, the crew managed to collect solar power from local stars to power the replicators and create needed supplies in bulk (such as ration packs, spare parts, etc.)

We also know VOY was trading for various resources with other species, but initially in its journey, the crew mostly tried mining some resources from other star system (which was mentioned)... so it probably also salvaged any downed shuttles (at least those not blown to bits) off screen, and reconstruct them.

The torpedoes are easily enough made... the only issue is anti-matter, and we know omicron particles can be used to augment AM reserves - so its possible the crew found an alternative source - though this could have easily been mentioned on-screen.

As for Fury... that one was out of the blue indeed. I wouldn't say it 'destroyed' Kes' character entirely... but I agree it didn't do her any favours.
It may have been better if Kes appeared without memories and only a whisp of remembrance of VOY, and then the crew tried helping her to regain those memories and help send her back to the Ocampa so she could help them instead.

In fact, it would be interesting to see if Prodigy touches on the subject of what became of the Ocampa.
Thye probably could have developed their mental abilities with Kes assistance and managed to push themselves to a more advanced status as a species.

As for the Maquis problem, personally I think it was bad politics from the UFP, very similar to what the UK and France did during the Sudetenland crisis in 1938.

in fact, the actions from the UFP reminded a lot of how the UK and France tried to pacify Hitler by giving him everything he wanted-and got the war as a result for that.

The Federation abandoned their colonists in order to please the Cardassians and got the Maquis uprising as a result of that.

The Federation almost risked a total war with their long-time and most powerful ally, the Klingons in order to please the Cardassians.

And how did the cardassians thank them? By joining the Dominion and together with them almost destroying the Federation.

Note that I don't write this to argue with you or question your comments, I'm just stating it as a matter of fact.

One thing to remember is that UFP isn't keen on waging wars. It does whatever it can to AVOID them in fact... and that probably manifests in a way that has drawbacks occasionally (however, and on the whole, it seems that despite some drawbacks, the UFP does manage with this - although I guess a little more pro-active followup wouldn't hurt - Mariner did mention SF is bad at doing followup because it would have been able to avoid so many issues that cropped up later - I think this was a classic issue of Lower Decks taking a jab into previous writers who didn't exactly write SF to behave in a slightly more 'sensible' capacity).

Also, UFP member planets became members in part (or at least in the late 22nd, 23rd and 24th centuries) because of the principles and ideals it represented.
Before the UFP was first founded, the Coalititon preceeded it (as a mutually defensive pact) and then UFP arose from that coalition with its own principles and ideals which Earth, Vulcan, Tellar and Andoria established (largely lead by Earth probably because it was deemed most 'impartial' and with unique ability to bring alien species together).

In order to stay close to those ideals and principles, compromises like these were probably inevitable.

We also know the UFP willingly gave up on use of cloaking technology due to the Treaty of Algeron.

Nothing is likely stopping UFP from researching new science and technology when it comes to cloaking tech in the sense of devising better methods of detection, however, they ARE prohibited from using cloaking on their ships... and Roddenberry wasn't keen on having UFP ships hiding like that - though, there HAVE been situations when the use of cloak would have been at least useful (sparse as they would have been - and the UFP wouldn't be using it all the time anyway).

Cardassians were described as highly militaristic species obviously (though this was mainly because the military was in power and in charge of everything)... but in fairness, their overall size and ship capabilities never really impressed me.
Its also possible they never represented a real threat to UFP and their initial conflict (before the Dominion war) was largely confined to a small part of space where O'Brien was stationed at the time (when he described that massacre).

Also, the UFP knew the Cardassians could betray them... and if that happened, and a war broke out, it would probably end very badly for the Cardassians and end up in UFP taking what they gave them and then some (which is pretty much what happened when the Dominion War ended).
The UFP probably doesn't want to annex territories from other species and is content to leave them be.

If I remember correctly, the Cardassians as a whole didn't join the Dominion willingly... Dukat did.
The Dutapa council was something he never approved of, so he needed military support from his own people (which he amassed after he got Dominion support) in order to get back into power and basically overthrow the council.
And prior to that, the Cardassians were also dealt a crippling blow by the Klingons (who went on a rampage because they were convinced Founders infiltrated Cardassia).

I don't think its a simple matter of Cardassians betraying UFP... it was a series of events that happened which lead the dominant power on Cardassia alying itself with the Dominion (and we know that just because there are leaders who want to wage wars, the populace itself doesn't necessarily approve of it - but the population itself is more or less powerless when going up against the military with powerful weapons determined on 'following orders')... and not something the populace as a whole wanted (the military was in charge most of the time for Cardassians which got their first taste of 'freedom' when the Dutapa council was first established).

So, I wouldn't be too harsh on the Cardassians as a whole... I'd be harsh on their military regime and leaders for the most part.

If we take a cue from real life, the general population seldom approves of its military practices and leaders, and incidentally, the general population (and innocent people in general) end up in the cross fire.
That's one thing the UFP probably wants to avoid because it knows that in war, despite their best to try and protect the general public, the other side can (and probably will) end up endind some.

I agree with you that Janeway and Chakotay should have made more accommodations for the Maqui in that regard to integrate them better into VOY given the fact they never went through the academy. It would have been the best way to integrate them in the crew. And I never understood the point with those "special rank pins" for the maquis members of the crew. In that case it would have been better to install them all as a "special force" on board the ship with their own uniforms.

As for the speech, I do find it a bit over the top. Not so much the meaning of it and what she said but the performance itself and how she delivered the message. It did come out as a bit hysterical in the ongoing situation.

Given the situation and what transpired with both the Trabe and the Kazon, Janeway needed a little bit of encouragement for the crew... and this I think was the best she could come up with under the circumstances.

To be fair, at that particular moment, the ship felt even more 'cut off' from the outside universe and it seemed they had enemies left and right and couldn't really rely on anyone in that part of space, so it seemed somehow fitting.

One thing that didn't change were UFP principles and ideals. And I personally like that when you have such things to aspire and stay close to.
We've seen on too many occasions in other series (non Trek, and even in Trek) that characters who were supposed to have been 'evolved' individuals, descend into absolute chaos at the slightest of problems.
One of the stronger showing of characters (for me) is staying close to their original convictions and not wavering even when faced with radical circumstances (obviously, not all circumstances would have allowed this, but occasional extremes which force the character to deviate are understandable... as long as they return to those original principles and ideals - and I have to admit that UFP ideals and principles WOULD be worth holding on to).

Actually I like Janeway. She's one of my favorites in the show (after Kes, Chakotay and Paris). I agree with most of her decisions but there are certain episodes and books in which I would have done something different. I might take it up in the future..

Same here. Janeway is my favourite among Trek captains. I also liked Chakotay and Kes. Paris had his charms... and he grew on me. Although, I don't think I ever took to Kim that well.
Something tells me it would have been better off if his character was killed off for good when VOY was split into two (the episode when Samantha Wildman gave birth to Naomi) and Kim was sucked out of that hull breach.
More screen time could have been given to Kes in turn.

Plus, his lack of rank advancement showed a real issue. The writers should have at least promoted him at some point in Season 4 or 5.

Despite VOY flaws, I do think Janeway was dealt a rather poor hand given the circumstances... plus, we have to keep in mind she tried to stay close to UFP principles and ideals in the face of proverbial absurdity. This is probably where huge inconsistencies in her character arise... and why people thought she was 'unstable'.

Mind you, if you wanted to stay close to the UFP principles and ideals but are faced with ridiculous set of circumstances, you'd probably come off as unstable as well (heck, I'm usually described as 'too idealistic' when I look at some of the atrocities that happen in the real world, but I also present REAL scientific solutions that would address the ROOT cause of the problem - and yet I'm the one labeled as 'idealist' and sometimes as 'insane' - as if its something wrong - when more of the same has been the attitute of too many people which brought us to the existing problems in the first place).

I'm not saying I approve of every decision Janeway made... but I can definitely understand her POV and willingness to stay close to UFP principles and ideals.

Yes, he was smart enough to realize that the only way for his maquis crew to come home was with Voyager and he did what he did because of that. Most of his crew did realize it too and their respect for Chakotay's leadership was such that they did follow him.

Indeed.
Though I guess it definitely helped that Janeway appointed Chakotay as her First Officer... and to be fair, she had every reason to.
Her original first officer was dead, and Chakotay was a graduate of SF academy and was already a Commander, so he was the ideal choice.
Plus, given the circumstances, even Sisko's previous friend who was a Commander who joined the Maqui did try to maintain some kind of line of communication (along with Sisko) until the circumstances broke them up for good.
In the DQ, there was no DMZ to worry about, so, most of their issues became moot, and Chakotay and Janeway both had to work together.
Plus, there's probably no SF officer who doesn't sympathize with the Maqui and their situation to one degree or another.

Some would say the Maqui and SF crew should have butted heads more often, but from my perspective, this could have worked originally for a few episodes only... and even then it would have probably felt like it was pushed.
Maqui and SF officers both came from UFP originally... so they had a lot more in common than not. And the main source of their 'division' was over 70 000 Ly's away... to me, sticking to that 'butting heads' would not have worked too well if overused... but I guess it could have been used in a different capacity... such as say that Maqui are NOT trained Academy officers but regular UFP citizens... so their duties on VOY would have to reflect most of that.
I guess this is where the differences between Maqui and SF would arose... similar to how differences would arise from having regular citizens on board a military ship (even though SF is not described as a military - but you get the analogy).

Though, I do think that given the fact the Maqui were not trained officers, it stands to reason most of them served as crewmen on VOY with no rank to speak of (which is exactly what happened). Some may have been given commissions though based on their inclinations and Chakotay's recommendations... but I do think a lot of them would have been involved with developing hydroponics further, and maybe some tinkerers with computer systems and engineers.

I think sticking them into traditional SF roles may have been the wrong way to go... so I guess VOY could have tried doing things differently.
Let them still contribute, but in their own way while NOT having to conform to SF rules and regulations.

That I think was a missed opportunity.

After all, you will have people skilled with hydroponics/airponics, computers and in engineering who didn't join SF... so I think they would have worked on VOY in those fields and worked with the SF officers (some Maqui like Torres who attended the Academy may have been given commissions due to the need for more officers and to preserve the function of the ship itself).

But VOY crew would have been a mixture of civilians and SF in that case... like Galaxy class had families... but on a much smaller scale.
 
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Actually I like Janeway. She's one of my favorites in the show (after Kes, Chakotay and Paris). I agree with most of her decisions but there are certain episodes and books in which I would have done something different. I might take it up in the future..

I feel as you do.

Well, it's Janeway we're talking about. She's so awesome, the law of averages (or any laws of mathematics or physics) can take

That's why I sometimes refer to her as the Chuck Norris of Star Trek: consider the larger than life nature of her accomplishments: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/who-needs-chuck-norris-when-youve-got-kathryn-janeway.307281/

One of the biggest problems is the writers never iserting a few seconds of dialogue occasionally into episodes such as say: 'We've assembled team for creating new torpedoes and shuttles' for example.
Or, Janeway could have mentioned in one of her logs that when stopping in some star systems, the crew managed to collect solar power from local stars to power the replicators and create needed supplies in bulk (such as ration packs, spare parts, etc.)

We also know VOY was trading for various resources with other species, but initially in its journey, the crew mostly tried mining some resources from other star system (which was mentioned)... so it probably also salvaged any downed shuttles (at least those not blown to bits) off screen, and reconstruct them.

Yes. I resolve ten inconsistencies here with only snippets of dialogue: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/how-to-resolve-6-voyager-inconsistencies-in-85-seconds.309089/

Something tells me it would have been better off if his character was killed off for good when VOY was split into two (the episode when Samantha Wildman gave birth to Naomi) and Kim was sucked out of that hull breach.
More screen time could have been given to Kes in turn.

Plus, his lack of rank advancement showed a real issue. The writers should have at least promoted him at some point in Season 4 or 5.

This. Given that Harry pretty much stopped being the "wet behind the ears ensign" in season two or three, they should have either given the character a new journey (like when Nog decided to join Starfleet) or simply retired him. Killing him would have worked, but he could have been eliminated non-lethally ("Non Sequitur" was a perfect opportunity).
 
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