Wonder Woman might be a bad example. She was drawn specifically to bring in the BDSM subculture to the masses, and there's a lot of intentional lesbian imagery and subtext in the original comics.
Jakotay
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Wonder Woman might be a bad example. She was drawn specifically to bring in the BDSM subculture to the masses, and there's a lot of intentional lesbian imagery and subtext in the original comics.
It's possible in some situations.... but towards Voyager, I accept how Janeway was written..... if she was in a relationship, a serious one, during the series, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest.
But what you say above can also be attributed in equal fashion towards male characters, like James Bond, etc. Sure perhaps in sci-fi, leading female roles may have been purposely distanced from relationships..... all because they want to show a totally independent woman taking care of business, but I never saw it needed to improve their overall character or some sign or weakness, just as a male lead character having or not having a relationship.
IMO, it's a life choice, not a reflection on a person's independence or weakness, thus my view of not caring if Janeway was in a relationship or not.... it was her choice and as the story goes, she chose not to have one.
So be it.
Noah Lessing was the Equinox Crewman she tied to a chair and then interrogated and intimidated until he told the truth.
Big black guy.
He was a Cylon.
Big black guy.
He was a Cylon.
Oh, right! *facepalm* Too much coffee, not enough sleep.
You have a point. Maybe Wonder Woman is a good example.
It shows that they have very similar expectations in how they expect their men to behave, but the original assumption was that they were both "sexless" characters, however the rule of thumb is that S&M is "supposed" to be sexless, not that that is the strictest convention or that sex can't happen "after" the S&M has concluded.
A good example for some aspects of Janeway, but not all.
Is Lynda Carter a vampire?
Have you seen her recently?
A good example for some aspects of Janeway, but not all.
Is Lynda Carter a vampire?
Have you seen her recently?
Also a valid point. I would argue that WW did pull sexuality into the equation, however. Whereas, Janeway was always a 'sexless' character. Any sex we thought we might have spotted was strictly accidental, IMO.
I wish Kim was a sexless character.
I still have Nightmares about him getting dressed after that alien broad gave him space herpes in "The Disease".
Are the other woman in the cast/crew who were sexually active less "powerful" or "womanly" than Janeway?
(There are arguments towards kes and Neelix's relationship being pg13 and if there had been a season 8, Seven would have still been a virgin.)
So, I'm talking about B'Elanna mostly.
was being with Tom diminishing her in any way?
Was carrying their baby diminishing her in any way?
If the answer to both those questions was "no" then one wonders what advantage there was to Janeway being sexless and sexually unobtainable?
I still have Nightmares about him getting dressed after that alien broad gave him space herpes in "The Disease".
Are the other woman in the cast/crew who were sexually active less "powerful" or "womanly" than Janeway?
(There are arguments towards kes and Neelix's relationship being pg13 and if there had been a season 8, Seven would have still been a virgin.)
So, I'm talking about B'Elanna mostly.
was being with Tom diminishing her in any way?
Was carrying their baby diminishing her in any way?
If the answer to both those questions was "no" then one wonders what advantage there was to Janeway being sexless and sexually unobtainable?
The answer to your last question is none because the answer to your other two questions is no.
This was completely Kate Mulgrew's fault. I love Kate, but she completely screwed this one up. Janeway should have been allowed an onboard romance after the Dear John letter in season 4.
This was completely Kate Mulgrew's fault. I love Kate, but she completely screwed this one up. Janeway should have been allowed an onboard romance after the Dear John letter in season 4.
I would have liked Janeway's character, regardless of whether or not she had a partner. She probably felt that the pressure of being a starship captain (not to mention having to be a leader to a crew stranded in space) was enough on her plate, and that a relationship at that point might have compromised her focus on her crew. Plus, like someone else said, look at the other captains (Kirk, Picard, etc) who never married. I liked the sexual tension between Janeway and Chakotay, but I'm glad they never got together. Their personalities were too different, IMO.
Maybe that's why she went to such lengths to never promote ENSIGN Kim? because she did secretly find him yummy but refused to tap ENSIGN Kim until he was CAPTAIN Kim?
I can understand Kate and Kathryn turning kathryn's suitors down because of who she wants to be, nothing wrong with that... But there just weren't as many men "interested" in her as there should have been given all that she had going for her. The universe (ie the writers) constructed an existence wherein Janeway's lack of libido was never challenged by opportunity, by countless and continuing opportunity, and never alerted s to how artificial the status quo she'd landed herself on really was.
Depending on how quickly the crew paired off (re: time and again, however since the nigh almost complete lack of babies (miral was Born in the Alpha Quadrant and Naomi was conceived in the Alpha quadrant), maybe nobody paired off except Tom and B'Elanna(I have a theory about the Doctor.)? Maybe there was so much sex going on after dark that the inertial couldn't compete and that that ship was actually "a'rocking", and maybe that's why Kim was put in charge opf the night shift so that he would not be invited/involved in the really good orgies? Or they were just really good because he wasn't invited/involved?), were supposed to believe that Harry and Tom each "dated" the entire female compliment except Kathryn and Naomi, and then went back for seconds and thirds?
Those two can't have been unique.
That ship was a'rocking.
If this was the case, then it wasn't that Janeway had to hold herself to a higher standard, but that she needed a zero tolerance policy installed or else in for a penny in for a pound just like Tom and Harry it would have been very bad manners to say "no" to some and "yes" to others, and the poor woman would have drowned in smutty invitations for sleepovers.
I can understand Kate and Kathryn turning kathryn's suitors down because of who she wants to be, nothing wrong with that... But there just weren't as many men "interested" in her as there should have been given all that she had going for her. The universe (ie the writers) constructed an existence wherein Janeway's lack of libido was never challenged by opportunity, by countless and continuing opportunity, and never alerted s to how artificial the status quo she'd landed herself on really was.
Depending on how quickly the crew paired off (re: time and again, however since the nigh almost complete lack of babies (miral was Born in the Alpha Quadrant and Naomi was conceived in the Alpha quadrant), maybe nobody paired off except Tom and B'Elanna(I have a theory about the Doctor.)? Maybe there was so much sex going on after dark that the inertial couldn't compete and that that ship was actually "a'rocking", and maybe that's why Kim was put in charge opf the night shift so that he would not be invited/involved in the really good orgies? Or they were just really good because he wasn't invited/involved?), were supposed to believe that Harry and Tom each "dated" the entire female compliment except Kathryn and Naomi, and then went back for seconds and thirds?
Those two can't have been unique.
That ship was a'rocking.
If this was the case, then it wasn't that Janeway had to hold herself to a higher standard, but that she needed a zero tolerance policy installed or else in for a penny in for a pound just like Tom and Harry it would have been very bad manners to say "no" to some and "yes" to others, and the poor woman would have drowned in smutty invitations for sleepovers.
No problem at all.
But as far as a smutty invitations went, I always assumed that it was janeway who was oing to be dealing with Tuvok's pon far like she help the vulcan face off against his cosmic clap in Flashback.
Especially since Vorrik seemed to think that Holograms were not "shaggable" probably because of the lack of the telepathic element in the light bulbs boffing skillset?
(Lightbulbs offering it up to to even dimbulbs like Kim is another excuse for no babies.)
But as far as a smutty invitations went, I always assumed that it was janeway who was oing to be dealing with Tuvok's pon far like she help the vulcan face off against his cosmic clap in Flashback.
Especially since Vorrik seemed to think that Holograms were not "shaggable" probably because of the lack of the telepathic element in the light bulbs boffing skillset?
(Lightbulbs offering it up to to even dimbulbs like Kim is another excuse for no babies.)
I don't think its limited to "geek fiction".
The Virgin Queen (Queen Elizabeth I) wasn't, and yet the real/historical woman played the part to prevent someone else from usurping her power. I suspect Mulgrew deep down had "that" fear, that entanglements in the bedchamber (I'm still channeling QE I) would water down her character's power.
As for the writers who write these TV fictions, I also suspect that they suffer from the "CK Dexter Haven" syndrome. If you are unfamiliar with the name, I would point you toward a wonderful comedy from the 1940's called "The Philadelphia Story".
From CK's first long conversation with his ex-wife, on the eve of her wedding to another man.
"There's something engaging about it, this "Goddess" buisness, something more challenging to the male than the more obvious charms. We're very vain, you know. "'This citadel can and shall be taken and I'm the boy to do it.'"
(CK, after admitting that he craves the Goddess, then berates her for these "qualities".)
"Because you will never be a 1st class human being or a 1st class woman... until you've learned to have regard for human fraility. Its a pity your own foot can't slip a little sometime... but your own sense of inner divinity wouldn't allow that. This Goddess must and shall remain intact."
The movie is rife with examples of the men (her fiance, her exhusband, a new potential lover late to the party) who do just as CK suggests. They crave the Goddess, they worship "from afar", they put her on a pedestal... and then they trash her because they have put her so high above them
Kate Mulgrew, the actress, didn't do as I would have preferred, which was push for a relationship that would have uplifted her character. I suspect she refused because she has seen enough plays/tv scripts, movies where the female in control lost control when the sexual agenda was explored. Was she right/wrong/ paranoid? That would take another thread to delve into appropriately.
But the end result of Mulgrew's tenacity was that the "CK Dexter Havens" of the writing world didn't completely win on Voyager. Yes, they put Janeway on a pedestal, and made her a Virginal Queen/Goddess, but they also let her foot slip, and let her show that she DID have regard for human fraility.
YMMV (and usually does.)
What about Seska?
She used her cooch to steal some guys entire empire, and he was so cooch blind that he didn't notice.
Then their Chuckles TIED TO A CHAIR (being harvested of his little babies (raped) ) referencing his own coochblind phase from his own life where he'd followed Seskas treacherous cooch into harms way but just short of a Cardassian firing squad to Cullah, and that Cullah should learn from his mistakes and not be such a puppet to the monster between Seskas legs. that it wasn't too late to see reason, rather than...
Cullah was coochblinder than Chakotay ever had been.
Punched the indian in the face for the good advice he offered I beleive?
Their is power in both sets of genitals, but it's more got to do with the teetering meat on ones shoulders handing out instructions than the anatomy god gave one to work with.
She used her cooch to steal some guys entire empire, and he was so cooch blind that he didn't notice.
Then their Chuckles TIED TO A CHAIR (being harvested of his little babies (raped) ) referencing his own coochblind phase from his own life where he'd followed Seskas treacherous cooch into harms way but just short of a Cardassian firing squad to Cullah, and that Cullah should learn from his mistakes and not be such a puppet to the monster between Seskas legs. that it wasn't too late to see reason, rather than...
Cullah was coochblinder than Chakotay ever had been.
Punched the indian in the face for the good advice he offered I beleive?
Their is power in both sets of genitals, but it's more got to do with the teetering meat on ones shoulders handing out instructions than the anatomy god gave one to work with.
That's an interesting comparison. Queen Elizabeth was expected to marry and produce an heir for England but had watched her sister marry for duty and along with the Spanish king got the Spanish Inquisition (completely unexpected I'm sure.
).Elizabeth's challenge was to find a husband who could be king in name while allowing her to rule. If that seems pretty impossible today it certainly was back then.
It seems Mulgrew didn't want a relationship to undermine Janeway's authority. Also, there was the fear that the desired demographic would be disgusted by the idea of an "older" woman in a sexual relationship. Thank God nuBSG proved that wrong with Adama/Roslin!
There is also the rumor that Mulgrew and Beltran had an affair that turned sour which would certainly make them anti-JC.
Also, Trek has traditionally been more about sexual titillation instead of realism. For many looking at catsuits and miniskirts while watching Kirk or Riker navigate one night stands is more interesting than watching two middle-aged characters argue about the socks being left on the floor - again.
I love that duo! You gotta a love a woman who's sexy even when bald.
Rosalind is so hot.
So hot.
Bev was what twice as old as Kathy and we still had to watch her make out with that monkey Riker. It's not Bev's age I have a problem with mind you, it's the bestiality. He has fingers where his toes should be. never really completely recovered from TNG Genesis.
Bev is hot.
Kathy had her moments.
Kathryn had more moments than Bev did.
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