Is Starfleet a military organization?
- Thread starter Commander Troi
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I read Shatner’s Star Trek Memories book when it first came out. And I remember not being impressed by its veracity then.
We (@Harvey and I) tend to look at memoirs as fairly dubious sources, often best used to support primary sources if they happen to agree, but never as primary sources themselves . Human memory is notoriously faulty, especially decades on. And, in this instance, many of the incidents Shatner describes are things that happened when he was not in the room, and he is merely repeating either from memory or by interviewing other people reliant on their own possibly/likely inaccurate memories.
I have spent a fair amount of time reading the correspondence in the Roddenberry papers, and I see no indication that anyone at NBC—let alone Desilu—ever asked for the show to be militarized. As I laid out, the primary sources illustrate people wanted more action. That does not mean calling in the Marines.
We (@Harvey and I) tend to look at memoirs as fairly dubious sources, often best used to support primary sources if they happen to agree, but never as primary sources themselves . Human memory is notoriously faulty, especially decades on. And, in this instance, many of the incidents Shatner describes are things that happened when he was not in the room, and he is merely repeating either from memory or by interviewing other people reliant on their own possibly/likely inaccurate memories.
I have spent a fair amount of time reading the correspondence in the Roddenberry papers, and I see no indication that anyone at NBC—let alone Desilu—ever asked for the show to be militarized. As I laid out, the primary sources illustrate people wanted more action. That does not mean calling in the Marines.
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You know maybe that is the case and Shatner has it wrong but let me ask you this question. How do you explain the use of military vocab in the TOS screenplays? You can have action without the need for the use of military parlance.
The use of Naval parlance in Star Trek (original) is well-documented, including in The Making of Star Trek.
Roddenberry wanted audiences to easily relate to the show, so he opted to use the naval model rather than obtuse "futuristic" terms like Rocketship X. Terms the general audience would be more familiar with — i.e. ship names, portside, starboard, decks, ranks, etc.
He also used Horatio Hornblower and the Age of Sail Royal Navy as another model for the show. Kirk is after all a "space-age Hornblower".
Roddenberry and others on the show were WWII vets... so they were familiar with military parlance and procedures.
Roddenberry wanted audiences to easily relate to the show, so he opted to use the naval model rather than obtuse "futuristic" terms like Rocketship X. Terms the general audience would be more familiar with — i.e. ship names, portside, starboard, decks, ranks, etc.
He also used Horatio Hornblower and the Age of Sail Royal Navy as another model for the show. Kirk is after all a "space-age Hornblower".
Roddenberry and others on the show were WWII vets... so they were familiar with military parlance and procedures.
^^^
This.
IIRC, the neck pinch came about because Nimoy wanted a unique fighting style for an alien to employ, not because he was against violence.
Contrary to popular belief, TOS was not trying to reinvent the wheel. There were plenty of shows and movies at the time about military explorers heading out and having adventures, and Roddenberry and the other writers of TOS simply chose that mold for the show because they knew it worked.
Indeed, and if someone had asked Hornblower if he was part of the "military" then he would be have been tremendously insulted and retorted that he was navy not military. But by any modern definition, including that which Gene himself would have been familiar, Hornblower was military because he "fought his country's war" even if he did it from a ship rather than on land.
Per Herb Solow (Inside Star Trek, p.16): "And he'd solved one of the problems of audience familiarity by using contemporary navy terms, ranks, names, and jargon. It was captain and yeoman and medical officer; it was 'starboard' and 'port,' and it was the U.S.S. Yorktown (later changed to the Enterprise), rather than 'Rocket Ship X-9.'"
Solow gives Roddenberry complete credit for originating this with the show concept, before any network was pitched.
Solow gives Roddenberry complete credit for originating this with the show concept, before any network was pitched.
Yeah, it was "militarized" from the start and didn't become less so. GR also had a hand in writing and rewriting scripts. I've a feeling any "objections" came after TOS was done. Probably during his College tour days.
It's there because the writers of the show put them there, including Roddenberry. The "network" didn't slip them in behind GR's back.
If anything, I believe it was Roddenberry himself who would regularly get after the other writers reminding them to write the Enterprise crew as though they were writing military personnel.
Indeed. And more interestingly, when Spock started on the road to being more logical and alien in "Where No Man has Gone Before" Spock utilizes more of a karate chop style technique to subdue Mitchell, and not now famous neck pinch. So, I'm skeptical about the "against violence" claim.
And Gene even wanted the Enterprise to carry a platoon of Starfleet Marines...
I know you love the idea of Starfleet Marines, but source?
didn't the script ask for knocking out 'evil kirk' with a phaser butt and he thought that a tad on the vulgar side?
That is the impression I got reading Shatner's memories who also seemed to indicate that Chekov's character had suddenly become totalitarian for some episode. However it seems a lot of people here seem to think Shatner's opinions of these matters dubious. Guess I will have to read more books.
So what books should I read to fact-check my ST knowledge?
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Not really. The United States Coast Guard is exactly that -- the United States Coast Guard, an armed service of the federal government.
What they were describing would be space forces raised by and controlled by the local Member State governments rather than by the Federation government. They would be the space equivalent of, say, the Ohio Naval Milita or the Maryland Defense Force, rather than the U.S. Coast Guard.
I don't think that's it at all. For one thing, the DS9 writers never thought of the audience that way. For another, Moore specifically says that it's a matter of wanting to streamline an already-complex story that they only have 40-something minutes to tell. That's not a matter of looking down on the audience; it's a matter of how one-long television dramas functioned in the 1990s.
More or less. Although I'd also imagine that some are National Guard-style units that can be used outside of the member's system(s) under certain legal protocols.
It was 80-90 minutes as a two-parter, but that's a minor point. However, your point is a valid take, however I would like to agree-to-disagree.
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