Is Starfleet a military organization?

[The Wormhole]

I know you love the idea of Starfleet Marines, but source?

IIRC, it's one of those urban myths that's been floating around. I remember first seeing it when the MACOs were introduced on Enterprise and the Gene's Vision crowd called it against, well, Gene's Vision to which others responded that the earliest ideas for TOS called for a Marine Detachment on board, though I don't recall if they ever provided a source. I've heard older fans say that there was a belief back in the day that the security officers were Marines, based on the belief of said fans who were under the impression that Marines always handle security aboard naval vessels, but that's just fan conjecture and not anything official.

As far as I know, the only time there was anything official on the subject of Starfleet Marines was in TFF, where behind the scenes sources do indicate those were Marines on the Nimbus III raid, though they were never identified as such onscreen. Also when Enterprise was in the early development stages, the NX-01's security personnel were supposed to be Marines and Malcolm Reed a Major, though that obviously changed when the show went into production. Curiously, when the MACOs were introduced, they pretty much took over security anyway, with Reed being the only Starfleet Security officer on the ship in the third and fourth seasons.

I don't count Colonel West as proof of anything since he was obviously not meant to be anything more than an Oliver North pastiche. I just go with the (now defunct) Litverse continuity's take on him that he was actually a Starfleet Admiral who everyone called Colonel as a nickname. At the very least, if he were actually a Colonel, then he should have had a Captain's insignia on his uniform instead of an Admiral's.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The MACOs are somewhat remescient of Age of Sail Marines, which the Royal Marine Commandos (and perhaps the SEALs and MARSOC) somewhat resemble in modern day, but reflect the bulk of the current US Marine Corps -- one of the most overtly military units in the Western World -- poorly.

 

[Tim Thomason]

IIRC, it's one of those urban myths that's been floating around. I remember first seeing it when the MACOs were introduced on Enterprise and the Gene's Vision crowd called it against, well, Gene's Vision to which others responded that the earliest ideas for TOS called for a Marine Detachment on board, though I don't recall if they ever provided a source. I've heard older fans say that there was a belief back in the day that the security officers were Marines, based on the belief of said fans who were under the impression that Marines always handle security aboard naval vessels, but that's just fan conjecture and not anything official.

As far as I know, the only time there was anything official on the subject of Starfleet Marines was in TFF, where behind the scenes sources do indicate those were Marines on the Nimbus III raid, though they were never identified as such onscreen. Also when Enterprise was in the early development stages, the NX-01's security personnel were supposed to be Marines and Malcolm Reed a Major, though that obviously changed when the show went into production. Curiously, when the MACOs were introduced, they pretty much took over security anyway, with Reed being the only Starfleet Security officer on the ship in the third and fourth seasons.

I don't count Colonel West as proof of anything since he was obviously not meant to be anything more than an Oliver North pastiche. I just go with the (now defunct) Litverse continuity's take on him that he was actually a Starfleet Admiral who everyone called Colonel as a nickname. At the very least, if he were actually a Colonel, then he should have had a Captain's insignia on his uniform instead of an Admiral's.

I like the idea that he was a Colonel (in what organization, who knows?) but he was masquerading as an Admiral to walk undetected into the President's office for his presentation. They know him as Colonel West, but to the President's personnel secretary and any nosy investigators, he was just Vice Admiral Anderson of the Starfleet Uniform Design Department.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Based on the novelisation, what appears to have happened is that two roles, that of a senior flag officer and their aide, Colonel West, were essentially merged into one character (due to the former not having many lines) and given the former's uniform and the latter's name and title.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Didn't the phrase "Starfleet Marine Corps" actually appear on the Operation Retrieve plans?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Didn't the phrase "Starfleet Marine Corps" actually appear on the Operation Retrieve plans?

Starfleet Tactical Marine Corps (which sounds more like an elite special purpose unit to me) was referenced in a version of the Operation Retrieve posters, however this is contradicted by other versions of the same image that refer to something like "shield boundary" or similar.

Quoted from a previous topic on the matter a few years back:

Despite the issue that the version of the "Operation Retrieve" chart used as evidence for the "Starfleet Marines" may actually be incorrect (more recent photos of the actual prop show the notion 'Effective Limit of Surface Containment Force Field' rather than 'Standby Ground Troops Starfleet Tactical Marine Corps Entry Point') there is a certain logic within limits to the 'error'.

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/starfleet-tactical-marine-corps.289725/

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Based on the novelisation, what appears to have happened is that two roles, that of a senior flag officer and their aide, Colonel West, were essentially merged into one character (due to the former not having many lines) and given the former's uniform and the latter's name and title.

I'm also still of the mind that they didn't end up giving West a proper SF Marine uniform because it was only a one-shot character who would never appear again, and no new Marine characters were likely to show up either, so they just made do with what they had.

And yeah, I suppose I have been a bit of a Marine shill. Fine, I get that. I just like the sound of it, that's all. I like the idea of a branch of Starfleet dedicated to ground combat.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Except that they "already had" at least an undershirt variant that could have been used to show him as "different". The dark blue shirts worn by the "Federation forces" in the previous film, and the example of Scotty proves that a "Colonel" could wear that variation.

 

[The Wormhole]

Didn't the phrase "Starfleet Marine Corps" actually appear on the Operation Retrieve plans?

As you've been told before that was a fan recreation of the Operation Retrieve plans, the plans seen in the actual movie make no reference to a Starfleet Marine Corps.

I'm also still of the mind that they didn't end up giving West a proper SF Marine uniform because it was only a one-shot character who would never appear again, and no new Marine characters were likely to show up either, so they just made do with what they had.

As mentioned above, they had the blue turtlenecks from TFF they could have had him wear. Besides, in the event he was actually intended to be a Marine Colonel, why did they have him wear an Admiral's uniform, complete with gold trim and Admiral's rank insignia? If he were a Colonel, he should have been wearing a standard officer's uniform with a Captain's insignia. If he were supposed to be a Marine but had to wear that particular uniform for whatever reason, then he should have been addressed as General West instead.

But, as I said above, the character was never meant to be anything other than an Oliver North pastiche which is the only reason he was addressed as a Colonel. By using his rank to prove the existence of a Starfleet Marine Corps, of which there is no other reference to in fifty years of a franchise which covers a thousand years in-universe, you're putting way too much thought into the character than anyone involved with TUC likely ever did.

 

[J.T.B.]

I've heard older fans say that there was a belief back in the day that the security officers were Marines, based on the belief of said fans who were under the impression that Marines always handle security aboard naval vessels, but that's just fan conjecture and not anything official.

I don't know what fans' beliefs or knowledge were back in the day, but up to the time TOS was made it was standard for any US Navy warship commanded by a captain to have a USMC detachment. Besides security, ceremonial and landing force duties, most of them had battle stations as gun crews, but in the guided missile era that role was much reduced.

"Devil in the Dark" is probably the episode that makes the security force seem most like a warship marine detachment of old. There are only a half dozen seen, but they are employed as a unit under their own (lieutenant commander) officer in charge and Kirk calls them "security troops." They also serve as an honor guard in a couple of episodes.

If the OS security force is not supposed to be like an old-school marine detachment, it does make one wonder why it is such a major division (based on having a lieutenant commander and a good number of lieutenants). Discipline enforcement wouldn't seem to be a big consideration with the highly professional Starfleet crews. That leaves internal sentries and guards, but they never seem to be there when you need them!

And yeah, I suppose I have been a bit of a Marine shill.

Nah, you're not being paid by the Starfleet marines are you?

But, as I said above, the character was never meant to be anything other than an Oliver North pastiche which is the only reason he was addressed as a Colonel.

And wasn't even in the movie I saw in 1991.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

you're putting way too much thought into the character than anyone involved with TUC likely ever did.

I'm down with that.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

And wasn't even in the movie I saw in 1991.

Ditto.

 

[Sci]

I always figured Colonel West just had an unusual first name, like philosopher and activist Cornel West.

 

[suarezguy]

nonsense - starfleet is the only federation agency we see fighting anyone - they are the first and the last to fight. if starfleet is not the military then the federation doesn't have any military and would be easy prey for more agressive species like the fully militarized klingons or cardassians.

Again, individual planets can have defensive forces and I think it was established that some do.

Klingons do consider Kirk a warrior but I don't think they look at Starfleet as full of soldiers or warriors. I also think most of the Starfleet crew members don't consider themselves to be soldiers.

to me calling starfleet not the military is an euphemistic wankjob.

Forces that are by law constrained to only fighting in self-defense, are a very unusual, atypical form of military and arguably should be considered and called something else.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Forces that are by law constrained to only fighting in self-defense, are a very unusual, atypical form of military and arguably should be considered and called something else.

A Defense Force?

 

[oberth]

A Defense Force?

like the japanese defense force or the bundeswehr but we were both defense only because of that small misunderstanding called world war II

idf is also a defense force but one of their greatest commanders (moshe dayan) came up with the definition of preemptive vengeance

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

idf is also a defense force but one of their greatest commanders (moshe dayan) came up with the definition of preemptive vengeance

And the IDF has a far more complicated history due to the nation of Israel's founding thanks to Britain and it's promises, which created a whole series of events that lead to the IDF needing to come up with such a concept.

 

[comsol]

I always figured Colonel West just had an unusual first name, like philosopher and activist Cornel West.

Or he could have a hyphenated last name i.e. John Colonel-West, or he could be a Kentucky Colonel https://www.kycolonels.org.

 

[kkt]

It's a military in the same way an iPhone is a phone; it's does everything a phone does but it also does so much more than a traditional phone that the word 'phone' is a massive understatement.
Same with Starfleet. Starfleet are the designated combatants for the Federation but they do so much more that that the word 'military' is a massive understatement for what they are and do.

If a military was like an Iphone, it would hold lots of very flashy parades, but would fall apart completely if it actually had to fight.

 

[Sci]

If a military was like an Iphone, it would hold lots of very flashy parades, but would fall apart completely if it actually had to fight.

Leave the Russian Army out of this.