Is Starfleet a military organization?

[CptKirk]

There was a period in the mid to late 60s when Marxism was back in vogue. Hollywood has always had communist members and this was evident during the McCarthy witch trials, but that hunt was all well over and so was the Cuban missile crisis. It was almost 10 years later and flower power was in fashion and you had communist groups popping up everywhere. Hollywood simply treated it like another market.

Re-read Shatner's Memoirs. In it, he says that the studio put out a press release that the Chekov character was included in season 2 because Russians were under-represented by the crew. In fact, they had done it to have a Monkies character because the Monkies were selling like hotcakes.

I don't think the socialism with Star Trek was intentional but it's hard to think they were free-market capitalists either because of the utopian elements, which is why it can never fully depart from those socialist leanings. What the writers did was to include opposition that had stronger totalitarian motives and therefore the juxtaposition was this was something that Starfleet wasn't. However, the question still remained, if it wasn't the other type of society, then what was it?

IMO, utopian scenarios can't escape communist leanings because communism attempts to promise those types of egalitarian societies. It is obvious that technology can overcome obstacles over competitive resources, such as food (replicators), fuel (crystals and warp drive cores, beaming), health care, living standard (more replicators), and the such. Capitalism seems absent. Also, there is an obvious lack of class division in Star Trek. Again all of these are the promises of Marxism. So I think if you have a utopian story where humans have actually had successes in achieving utopian goals, that the story will never fully unroot itself from communist ideologies regardless. The way Star Trek leans, I think it will be hard to say it wasn't.

The appearance of the Ferengi in TNG and especially DS9 pretty much answered the question of whether Star Trek was a free-market capitalist society or not. Gold press latinum anyone?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

makes no sense as bajor is not a federation member - the boots on the ground in homefront and paradise lost are starfleet and not some earth defense force

Actually, there was some consideration of having Earth forces appear in those episodes but they decided that "Viewers are Idiots" and didn't bother.

But that's missing the point I was trying to make, or perhaps I didn't make it well enough.

Absent of the appearance of any Earth-specific forces that are not Starfleet, we can reasonably assume that Starfleet is responsible for Earth in a similar way that DC's Guard forces are essentially part of the same chain of the command as the regular national forces, just with different deployment restrictions. Whereas the local forces on Vulcan or Andor say, might be training to Starfleet standards but for day-to-day purposes have a separate chain of command and might include units that Starfleet does not.

 

[oberth]

Actually, there was some consideration of having Earth forces appear in those episodes but they decided that "Viewers are Idiots" and didn't bother.

But that's missing the point I was trying to make, or perhaps I didn't make it well enough.

Absent of the appearance of any Earth-specific forces that are not Starfleet, we can reasonably assume that Starfleet is responsible for Earth in a similar way that DC's Guard forces are essentially part of the same chain of the command as the regular national forces, just with different deployment restrictions. Whereas the local forces on Vulcan or Andor say, might be training to Starfleet standards but for day-to-day purposes have a separate chain of command and might include units that Starfleet does not.

there was a starfleet connie with only vulcans as crew and why would they have an integrated (species-wise) navy but seperate planetary defence forces - when the shits hits the fan you want the guys with guns under unified command.

a comparison with nato dosn't fly 'cause nato is an alliance of souvereign nations - the federation: not so much

 

[Dumbbell]

Dramatically? I mean, 11 (soon to be 12) series, 13 movies and uncounted novels/short stories/fan productions/video games/audio adventures/comic books seem to imply yes...

Note some of the context of the above quote:

Just imagine the endless stories that could be told each from the unique perspective of these other organizations about how they helped our favorite Starfleet crew accomplish its mission!


Is the status quo working? For how much longer until we need a new status quo? Rather than limit drama, it would open up Pandora's box!

Of course, I am happy for anyone who is a true Star Trek fan and is happy with nearly all of its media.

In reality, though, the status quo is never truly the status quo because it must always change. Almost all of these series and movies have deviated from what was previously the status quo. It is only natural with the passing of people and time.

The point of my comment was that Star Trek will always need a positive change in order to remain relevant.

I suggest we shift the focus of the setting from the shallow waters of Starfleet to the much deeper well of the Federation.

The Federtion includes a distinctly separate branch of armed forces that specializes in defense and serves in Federation space and other distinct services from within the Federation would come from separate organizations that specialize in civil rights, economic development, political stability, intelligence security, equitable trade, criminal courts, and public health, as a bare minimum.

A truly impressive well from which to draw upon!

That is not to minimize Starfleet’s contributing role in any way. It is simply to put it into perspective with the bigger picture. Starfleet should represent the exploratory and diplomatic expansion efforts of the Federation. Starfleet should continue to commission armed vessels that are home to crew and civilians and their families and a great number of scientists. The Federation needs that kind of taskforce on the frontier.

But, back home, in the Federation…

 

[fireproof78]

The point of my comment was that Star Trek will always need a positive change in order to remain relevant.

Too late. Trek is no longer relevant.

But, back home, in the Federation…

Then you need a new show, built from the ground up because Star Trek is built on the idea of the out there, not the in here.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

a comparison with nato dosn't fly 'cause nato is an alliance of souvereign nations - the federation: not so much

Debatable, however I didn't make that comparison. My comparision was the United States.

Which has National Forces (ala Starfleet), which also provide the command and control for the capital's defence (ala Starfleet), but also have individual state-level National Guards and State Guards, some of whom can be federalised into the joint of command as needed, but otherwise preserve internal autonomy which is constitent with what we see of Starfleet for the most part.

 

[oberth]

Debatable, however I didn't make that comparison. My comparision was the United States.

Which has National Forces (ala Starfleet), which also provide the command and control for the capital's defence (ala Starfleet), but also have individual state-level National Guards and State Guards, some of whom can be federalised into the joint of command as needed, but otherwise preserve internal autonomy which is constitent with what we see of Starfleet for the most part.

i don't remember any federation species having something like a national guard

 

[The Wormhole]

Gene Roddenberry appeared to spend a lot of his time writing letters to executives and how they really need to stop turning his Star Trek into a military outfit. The executives wanted more action. Roddenberry wanted more emotional "family" matters on the Enterprise.

Roddenberry himself pitched TOS as an action show, it's right there in the Writer's Guide.

i don't remember any federation species having something like a national guard

There's the Vulcan Expeditionary Group, mentioned frequently on Disco and seen recently on Lower Decks.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

And Vulcan defense forces are mentioned back in TNG.

There's also the Betazoid defences which are at least implicitly not part of the local fleet commander's jurisdiction.

 

[Kor]

But they're in ships. Wouldn't they be more like the coast guard?

Kor

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

the boots on the ground in homefront and paradise lost are starfleet and not some earth defense force

There were supposed to be local United Earth defense forces in those episodes - we would have seen them being "federalized" by Jaresh-Inyo (as is his right as Federation president) during the Leyton crisis - but all of that got cut for time.

 

[fireproof78]

Roddenberry himself pitched TOS as an action show, it's right there in the Writer's Guide.

Yes. But, he wanted an action show while they wanted an action show.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Gene Roddenberry appeared to spend a lot of his time writing letters to executives and how they really need to stop turning his Star Trek into a military outfit.

Link?

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Gene Roddenberry appeared to spend a lot of his time writing letters to executives and how they really need to stop turning his Star Trek into a military outfit. The executives wanted more action. Roddenberry wanted more emotional "family" matters on the Enterprise. However even Roddenberry was forced to accept that in many of the episodes already aired, some of which controlled mostly by himself had already laid the groundwork and expanded upon it with behavior consistent with these officers also being part military ready and able. So I think he had to resign himself to story arcs involving Star Trek engaged in military pursuits more than strictly scientific ones. However never the aggressor. So he seemed to make his peace with it given he did like Star Trek after all.

Calling @Maurice and @Harvey...

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

There were supposed to be local United Earth defense forces in those episodes - we would have seen them being "federalized" by Jaresh-Inyo (as is his right as Federation president) during the Leyton crisis - but all of that got cut for time.

I read it as more "viewers are idiots and we didn't want to confuse them unnecessarily":

<<IN "Homefront" the President said he never sought this position. DOes this
mean the Federation president is Appointed? Why no election? And why does
the Federation President put Earth into a state of Emergency? Does earth not
have it's own Government like all the other members of the Federation?>>

We assume the Fed President was duly elected, but that he reluctantly was
induced to run for the position. As for the Earth Govt vs. Fed Govt issue,
this was something we wrestled with in the story break. We wanted to tell
the story of an attempted military coup of the Federation and that meant
dealing with the Fed president. However, that meant the troops "in the
streets" had to be on Earth and that Earth itself had to be under martial law
since the Fed is headquartered on Earth. We discussed having the Prez
"federalize" the Earth defense forces or supercede the authority of an
indigenous Earth Govt, but the story kept getting too complicated and we
didn't want to start mentioning all these other players and organizations
that we weren't going to see. So in the end, we skirted the issue of who
actually governs Earth. Personally, I think there is an Earth Govt that
operates like more powerful versions of States do in the US system, but this
is all VERY murky water. Gene was pretty smart back in the 60s when he
decided not to discuss the exact outcome of Earth's political/social/economic
future and we've come about as close to doing just that as I think we should.

But YMMV.

My thoughts on "system defence forces" are partly informed by the plan that he outlines here as well.

 

[CptKirk]

Link?

It's in Shatner's book Memories the one about the TV series. Nimoy was actually heavily on his side because his character was supposed to be logical and not violent and is why the idea for the vulcan nerve pinch came up. Gene basically gambled quitting after season 2 and the studio called him on it, said goodbye and the characters in season 3 behave differently as a consequence. Nimoy was writing the complaints because the studio would you just lie to Gene to keep him happy and then film something else.

 

[Maurice]

Gene Roddenberry appeared to spend a lot of his time writing letters to executives and how they really need to stop turning his Star Trek into a military outfit. The executives wanted more action.

{citation needed}

1. Roddenberry wrote/dictated tons of memos and letters, the bulk of the ones in his papers not to "executives".
2. More action doesn't require a "military outfit", as plenty of action adventure shows—then as now—have nothing to do with military. Westerns, for instance. And I've never seen such a request from any "executives" (though one person did receive the single-word reply "NO!" from GR when they suggested that since episodes with "monsters" got higher ratings, could the show put in more).
3. Yes, the "executives" (specifically Stan Robertson at NBC Burbank) asked for more action, but then again the show was sold to NBC as an action-adventure, so the suits were understandably keen to get the kind of programming they were promised. Even Roddenberry himself admitted he'd lost sight of the action-adventure part of the pitch in making the first pilot, which is why the second pilot starts with a bang (the galactic barrier) and ends with a big action sequence. That's what sold NBC, and that's what the show was expected to be.
4. Finally, there's too much mythunderstanding about the show's production, much of it beginning with convention stories, tall tales, most "game of telephone"d by fan repetition til it's inflated, conflated, and historically dubious, then further spread/spewed far and wide by self-appointed Trek experts whose standards of proof are next to nil. Anyone's who's been lucky enough to have access—and availed themselves of the opportunity—to read a lot of production correspondence (little of which has been published) will know that it wasn't just NBC asking for more action, it was Roddenberry, Fontana, and Justman, all consistently carping that the scripts they were getting from freelancers were too talky and lacking in "action".

Calling @Maurice and @Harvey...

^^^

It's in Shatner's book Memories the one about the TV series. Nimoy was actually heavily on his side because his character was supposed to be logical and not violent and is why the idea for the vulcan nerve pinch came up. Gene basically gambled quitting after season 2 and the studio called him on it, said goodbye and the characters in season 3 behave differently as a consequence. Nimoy was writing the complaints because the studio would you just lie to Gene to keep him happy and then film something else.

Yeahhhhh. Not that simple. And Shatner's memoirs are not pinnacles of accuracy.

P.S. studio ≠ network.

 

[CptKirk]

{citation needed}

1. Roddenberry wrote/dictated tons of memos and letters, the bulk of the ones in his papers not to "executives".

^^^


Yeahhhhh. Not that simple. And Shatner's memoirs are not pinnacles of accuracy.

P.S. studio ≠ network.

Audiobook.

So you have read the book? If so then you know that Roddenberry constantly objected in writing to his concept being militarized. I am not saying it's simple. I am just saying it was obviously happening to Roddenberry's knowledge and Shatner seemed aware of it along with Nimoy also complaining about it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Audiobook.

So you have read the book? If so then you know that Roddenberry constantly objected in writing to his concept being militarized. I am not saying it's simple. I am just saying it was obviously happening to Roddenberry's knowledge and Shatner seemed aware of it along with Nimoy also complaining about it.

Dude. Maurice has read actual memos from Roddenberry about the show. A much better source than memories written down decades later by someone who probably wasn't as involved in production matters.

 

[CptKirk]

Dude. Maurice has read actual memos from Roddenberry about the show. A much better source than memories written down decades later by someone who probably wasn't as involved in production matters.

That's fine but he hasn't said that Roddenberry's memos contradict Shatner's recall.

If there is some mutual exclusivity then what it is? Shater remembered Roddenberry wrote notes against the militarization of his concept but had to concede it was there in earlier episodes he had done. He still objected to it though according to Shatner.