Is Starfleet a military organization?

[The Wormhole]

@The Wormhole has a great point about intelligence agencies. I think this comes from writers who know less than nothing about them.

That and when you get down to it, very little worldbuilding has been done of the Federation in over fifty years of the franchise, and what little has been done is usually just something from the US or UN ported over and converted into a futuristic space equivalent.

 

[fireproof78]

That and when you get down to it, very little worldbuilding has been done of the Federation in over fifty years of the franchise, and what little has been done is usually just something from the US or UN ported over and converted into a futuristic space equivalent.

Largely because it needs to be a thematic shorthand to keep audience members invested. Regardless of how it actually functions if it were real it functions similar to this familiar thing so that average people (note not TrekBBS posters) can follow the adventures of Captain Adventure and the Adventuring Ship Adventure.

 

[oberth]

Largely because it needs to be a thematic shorthand to keep audience members invested. Regardless of how it actually functions if it were real it functions similar to this familiar thing so that average people (note not TrekBBS posters) can follow the adventures of Captain Adventure and the Adventuring Ship Adventure.

... and that's the reason why even those klingons use that ridiculous us judical systen

i expect better from them - like a lot more trial by combat (maybe rudy g could be a referee)

 

[Dumbbell]

The question we should be asking is, Should Starfleet be the Federation's military organization?

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

The question we should be asking is, Should Starfleet be the Federation's military organization?

Depends on the plot.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The question we should be asking is, Should Starfleet be the Federation's military organization?

Why not? The Federation has to protect itself somehow. You can't do that without the military.

 

[Dumbbell]

Well, I don't think Starfleet, as we know it, should be the military arm of the Federation. It should be a general purpose exploration and courier service. I think the Federation should have distinct armed forces and should include a service branch dedicated to space.

 

[Commander Troi]

Interesting, @Dumbbell. So, instead of a big organization that does lots of things, you'd rather see lots of smaller organizations that each have specific areas of responsibility?

 

[oberth]

Interesting, @Dumbbell. So, instead of a big organization that does lots of things, you'd rather see lots of smaller organizations that each have specific areas of responsibility?

alphabet-soup in space?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Interesting, @Dumbbell. So, instead of a big organization that does lots of things, you'd rather see lots of smaller organizations that each have specific areas of responsibility?

Dramatically speaking, that would never work.

 

[Mayzio Jerome]

Like the Coast Guard in space, it's part of the military but it isn't necessarily thought of as a military organization. Except when it is & an admiral telling you to secretly prepare for a mission that you're not allowed to talk about while some guy who's really bad at his job takes over your ship is about to guarantee you get tortured for like a week but luckily your 2nd in command, your #1 is able to stand up to the moron running your ship & focus on keeping you alive & even after it's clear he put your life in danger goes unpunished after allowing you to get tortured "four lights" & the admiral who's equally bad at her job also goes unpunished despite being responsible for everything maybe gets a promotion? Because basically that's normal. So yeah it's basically like the Coast Guard if they were in charge of keeping the entire planet safe so i guess nothing like the Coast Guard except for the Naval rankings & overconfident leadership & stuff.

 

[Commander Troi]

I'm sensing some bitterness...

 

[Kor]

Dramatically speaking, that would never work.

With the MACOs, ENT attempted to depict a more combat-oriented service branch separate from Starfleet. And from ST:BEY, we know the MACOs fought in the Romulan War but were then dissolved when the Federation was founded. Apparently the UFP didn't think it was needed anymore.

Kor

 

[Dumbbell]

Interesting, @Dumbbell. So, instead of a big organization that does lots of things, you'd rather see lots of smaller organizations that each have specific areas of responsibility?

Not necessarily smaller organizations; I would think greater.

The Federation’s Starfleet is at times imagined to be a big organization that does lots of things. Its magnitude, however, naturally seems to be limited to a proportion that corresponds to the scope of the Federation itself. So, relative to the Federation, Starfleet is capped and will always be boring. Starfleet is so boring, in fact, that some storytellers cannot hold average attention without an end-of-the-world scenario, or two, or three.

One way to tell a greater story, is to adjust the setting so that it focuses on the bigger picture of the Federation rather than on Starfleet. We must be willing to acknowledge that Starfleet is small in comparison to the total of the United Federation of Planets. A multitude of other organizations specialize in performing various services. They are the best in their respective fields. They are not in Starfleet. Starfleet will always need the help of these professional organizations.

That includes needing the help of a distinctly separate branch of armed forces that specializes in defense and serves in Federation space.

Besides specialized military services, other distinct services from within the Federation would come from separate organizations that specialize in civil rights, economic development, political stability, intelligence security, equitable trade, criminal courts, and public health, as a bare minimum.

Just imagine the endless stories that could be told each from the unique perspective of these other organizations about how they helped our favorite Starfleet crew accomplish its mission!

Dramatically speaking, that would never work.

Is the status quo working? For how much longer until we need a new status quo? Rather than limit drama, it would open up Pandora's box!

 

[fireproof78]

Besides specialized military services, other distinct services from within the Federation would come from separate organizations that specialize in civil rights, economic development, political stability, intelligence security, equitable trade, criminal courts, and public health, as a bare minimum.

I have Law and Order.

 

[oberth]

Not necessarily smaller organizations; I would think greater.

The Federation’s Starfleet is at times imagined to be a big organization that does lots of things. Its magnitude, however, naturally seems to be limited to a proportion that corresponds to the scope of the Federation itself. So, relative to the Federation, Starfleet is capped and will always be boring. Starfleet is so boring, in fact, that some storytellers cannot hold average attention without an end-of-the-world scenario, or two, or three.

One way to tell a greater story, is to adjust the setting so that it focuses on the bigger picture of the Federation rather than on Starfleet. We must be willing to acknowledge that Starfleet is small in comparison to the total of the United Federation of Planets. A multitude of other organizations specialize in performing various services. They are the best in their respective fields. They are not in Starfleet. Starfleet will always need the help of these professional organizations.

That includes needing the help of a distinctly separate branch of armed forces that specializes in defense and serves in Federation space.

Besides specialized military services, other distinct services from within the Federation would come from separate organizations that specialize in civil rights, economic development, political stability, intelligence security, equitable trade, criminal courts, and public health, as a bare minimum.

Just imagine the endless stories that could be told each from the unique perspective of these other organizations about how they helped our favorite Starfleet crew accomplish its mission!




Is the status quo working? For how much longer until we need a new status quo? Rather than limit drama, it would open up Pandora's box!

i have yet to see a let's say vulcan planetary defense force or the roughnecks of the federation marines or the vast fleets of the federation navy - none of them ever showed up and while i'm none of those canon enthusiasts that would require a total revamp of trek - the trek as we know it would be gone

 

[Ragitsu]

Nope. Starfleet is an exploratory/diplomatic body with broad police powers; Starfleet is occasionally tasked with assuming a military posture. Ranks? Firefighters have ranks and the US Surgeon General isn't leading anyone into battle any time soon.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

i have yet to see a let's say vulcan planetary defense force or the roughnecks of the federation marines or the vast fleets of the federation navy - none of them ever showed up and while i'm none of those canon enthusiasts that would require a total revamp of trek - the trek as we know it would be gone

Starfleet Marines do exist. (ST V and VI*) This doesn't ruin Trek as we know it, not by a long shot.

Even James T. Kirk himself once said that Starfleet is a "combined service". I mean, you've got all the different uniform colors, each with its own specialty - command, engineering/security, and science/medical. Marines are just one more branch. What's non-Trek about that?

Starfleet Marines may have a unique rank system and uniform color, but they are still Starfleet. I don't see anything wrong with that. You've got the Starfleet "navy", which are the starship crews, and Starfleet Marines for ground forces. Simple, logical, effiicient.

* The Starfleet personnel which accompanied Kirk and crew to Nimbus III (in ST V) are Marines. And of course there's COLONEL West in ST VI.

 

[oberth]

Starfleet Marines do exist. (ST V and VI*) This doesn't ruin Trek as we know it, not by a long shot.

Even James T. Kirk himself once said that Starfleet is a "combined service". I mean, you've got all the different uniform colors, each with its own specialty - command, engineering/security, and science/medical. Marines are just one more branch. What's non-Trek about that?

Starfleet Marines may have a unique rank system and uniform color, but they are still Starfleet. I don't see anything wrong with that. You've got the Starfleet "navy", which are the starship crews, and Starfleet Marines for ground forces. Simple, logical, effiicient.

* The Starfleet personnel which accompanied Kirk and crew to Nimbus III (in ST V) are Marines. And of course there's COLONEL West in ST VI.

there's a reason i said federation not starfleet - for me starfleet is the military. if it is not where is the military as it certainly ain't starfleet but sth else, right?

Nope. Starfleet is an exploratory/diplomatic body with broad police powers; Starfleet is occasionally tasked with assuming a military posture. Ranks? Firefighters have ranks and the US Surgeon General isn't leading anyone into battle any time soon.

nonsense - starfleet is the only federation agency we see fighting anyone - they are the first and the last to fight. if starfleet is not the military then the federation doesn't have any military and would be easy prey for more agressive species like the fully militarized klingons or cardassians.

to me calling starfleet not the military is an euphemistic wankjob.

... and btw, the actual surgeon general of the us seems to be wearing a us navy uniform which i think is quite reasonable considering the fact that he's a us navy vice admiral

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivek_Murthy

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

starfleet is the only federation agency we see fighting anyone

Exactly. Because that's all the Federation NEEDS.

Starfleet fulfills every need the Federation requires - exploration, defense, intelligence, whatever is needed to carry the day. There's nothing a "Federation military" could do, that Starfleet cannot.

True, most of what we have seen so far of Starfleet is the "navy" - i.e. the starship crews. With the aforementioned three divisions - command, engineering/security, and sciences. So just add one more division (with its associated uniform color) - Marines. It's all still Starfleet. One military force to fulfill every need - logical and efficient.

In TOS, for example, my headcanon has black as the uniform color worn by Starfleet Marines. As for the color they would wear in TNG and later...I dunno, light gray, maybe? As I said, it's all still Starfleet - just one more division.

Just like the Canadian Forces. They manage just fine with one "super-military" to do everything that is required - why can't Starfleet?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Starfleet is the military, it's just not militaristic. Can't we see the difference?