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Is Starfleet a military organization?

There's an old saying "Less is more".

We don't need every season to be "World Ending" stakes or every single movie to be "World Ending".

Gradually ramp things up over time, but not everything should be "End of the Universe" level of issues.

"End of the Universe" type scenarios should be fairly rare and special.
I always struggle with this idea. Star Trek has dealt with a wide variety of stakes and none is some how lesser because it features the end of the world. Certainly I would prefer variety but I'll not knock a story just because it has a world ending stakes.

Maybe I am strange but if I am invested in the characters then the stakes can be whatever-I care about what happens to the people not the story. As a general rule I agree with 'less is more" but I also firmly believe in engaging the story where it is at. Wishing it to be something else does nothing but increase my blood pressure.

Mileage will vary.
 
many of Starfleet's "non-military" functions (exploration, diplomacy, science, etc.) are carried out by real militaries and I think that is a chicken-and-egg problem. Are these functions often carried out by military organizations because they're *inherently* part of military functions or has it just always been that way because we humans have tended to put military organizations first in our thinking and budgeting, so they have usually had the most/best resources? I tend to think the latter, but recognize that there's room for various opinions here too.
I'd say both. Militaries serve the people in whatever capacity is necessary, regardless if it's combat oriented or not. I remember one winter where I live there was a really serious blizzard in which the military was actually called into plow the roads since the city's snow plow drivers were that overwhelmed. I've either seen first hand or heard stories about the military being called into handle duties that aren't considered "typical military" jobs that it always astounds me whenever I see anyone try to say "Starfleet can't be a military because they do _____." 99.9 percent of the time, there's a very good chance that real militaries have done whatever _____ is and therefore it shouldn't be used as evidence Starfleet isn't a military.
 
I'd say both. Militaries serve the people in whatever capacity is necessary, regardless if it's combat oriented or not. I remember one winter where I live there was a really serious blizzard in which the military was actually called into plow the roads since the city's snow plow drivers were that overwhelmed. I've either seen first hand or heard stories about the military being called into handle duties that aren't considered "typical military" jobs that it always astounds me whenever I see anyone try to say "Starfleet can't be a military because they do _____." 99.9 percent of the time, there's a very good chance that real militaries have done whatever _____ is and therefore it shouldn't be used as evidence Starfleet isn't a military.
exactly
 
I'd say both. Militaries serve the people in whatever capacity is necessary, regardless if it's combat oriented or not. I remember one winter where I live there was a really serious blizzard in which the military was actually called into plow the roads since the city's snow plow drivers were that overwhelmed. I've either seen first hand or heard stories about the military being called into handle duties that aren't considered "typical military" jobs that it always astounds me whenever I see anyone try to say "Starfleet can't be a military because they do _____." 99.9 percent of the time, there's a very good chance that real militaries have done whatever _____ is and therefore it shouldn't be used as evidence Starfleet isn't a military.
100% this. I can't figure out why the need to parse hair so finely to avoid Starfleet being the military.
 
Are these functions often carried out by military organizations because they're *inherently* part of military functions or has it just always been that way because we humans have tended to put military organizations first in our thinking and budgeting, so they have usually had the most/best resources? I tend to think the latter, but recognize that there's room for various opinions here too.

Yes I think the latter too. For much of the history of nations, military forces were the only organization at the national level capable of complex undertakings, as well as usually being the most technologically advanced. A lot of big, important jobs that came up were handed off to the army or navy. And they still are: The US armed forces, especially the army, were very involved in the Operation Warp Speed Covid vaccine program last year, for example.

It doesn't seem beyond possibility to me that circumstances could come together in the future so that military organizations are again performing functions that were once thought to be in the past, or new functions that we haven't thought of yet.
 
100% this. I can't figure out why the need to parse hair so finely to avoid Starfleet being the military.
Because designating them a simple military organization is a bad (and sloppy) fit. What constitutes "military" has changed just in the past 60 years, 100 years, 300 years and let alone 200, 400 and 1200 years into the future.
(below adapted from my post in the chronological rewatch thread: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/chr...rical-perspective.309003/page-6#post-13919999)

Starfleet changed as the Federation grew. This shouldn't be surprising. The nature of any standing government institution will dramatically change as responsibilities grow. The Starfleet of a Federation that is 4 worlds in 2161 cannot be the same as one that comprises dozens of worlds in the 2260s, nor 183 worlds in the 2370s nor 350 "worlds" (potentially much of the galaxy depending on what a 'planet' is counted as) in the 30th century.

Trying to shoehorn what Starfleet is into modern terms makes no sense. It's like trying to liken the modern US Military to the Military of 1800. Yeah they share the name of the organization and the linage, but in almost no sense are they the same. Technically speaking, the modern US Military is a creation of World War II and everything before then is a series of adhoc armies erected around a lean meager skeletons. It's not pedantic or inaccurate to say "the US Military did not fight World War I, the National Army did and some of that went on to form the inter-war military that the World War II military was based around". The National Army was formed around the skeleton of the far smaller US Army.

To extend the metaphor, what Starfleet is in 2161 vs 2266 vs 2293 vs 2375 vs 3189 is likely something that would naturally change to meet the needs of the Federation over that vast length of time. It's been said before "is it a military"? It's not. It's nothing we have a direct analogue for, and that's perfectly okay, because neither did America in 1800 have an analogue for the modern US military, or the modern Department of Defense (or most of US government).

I think it's safe to assume that Starfleet in 2161 was what the Rise of the Federation books broke it down as: split into defense, exploration, logistical, scientific and managerial branches for a nascent interstellar alliance. By the 2260s-2280s, it clearly has more of sharper dual role between exploration and security, with a heavier lean on security as the 2270s and 2280s bore on.

The most developed, mature Starfleet that we see is of the 2360s and 2370s of course. And we see lots of strange things to our eyes.
  • We see uniformed civilians with no ranks or weird ranks (Kosinski).
  • We see Starfleet running or co-running major scientific institutes across every field of study imaginable. We see Starfleet as front line diplomats, working in tandem with civilian diplomats.
  • We see Starfleet negotiating trade deals and peace agreements, and facilitating interstellar relations, including the Federation wide communications network.
  • We see Starfleet running a care center for illicitly Augmented humans.

How can Starfleet be all these things as well as the organization that explores space, charts sectors, makes first contact and shoots up the Borg? It's because Starfleet of the 24th century is a unique creation to meet the needs of a 24th century interstellar state that different from those before and after.

If we want to liken it to anything, I think there is one fitting organizational type: a uniformed civil service. While the United States has six armed military branches (Army, Navy, Air Force, Space Force, Marines, Coast Guard) there are two more non-armed uniformed services - the NOAA corps, the uniformed branch of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the Public Health Service Commissioned Corps, the uniformed branch of the US Public Health Service, part of the Department of Health and Human Services. If anything, Starfleet is more like them, rather than the US Military. Even in 2371, the creation of a "new Federation Battle Fleet" was treated as a novelty by SIsko. It likely wasn't earlier in Federation history. And it certainly wasn't during the Dominion War, when Starfleet was organized into fleets. But it was a novel concept at that specific point in time, with the Federation not engaging in a major sustained military conflict since the 2250s.

Another modern day analogue, though it is a bit of a legal fiction, is the Japanese Self-Defense Forces, aka the Japanese military. Technically speaking, they're all uniformed civil servants. But these is largely due to Japanese history and constitutional limitations.

Military matters would be part, but not the defining part, of what Starfleet's mission profile is. The US Military's primary mission is deterrence - to prevent an attack on the United States through nuclear, biological, chemical, or conventional weapons, and to maintain the peace in key regions of Earth to prevent the development of a major military conflict the US would get drawn into. This is not Starfleet's primary mission. This is something it can do, but it is not why it exists. That makes it fundamentally different from the US military. But it is also something that likely waxes and wanes. From the 2390s to 2271, when the biggest military threat (Borg attack at Wolf 359 excluded) was the Cardassian Border Wars, military matters declined in importance compared to the 2280s, and then surged to be by far the most important thing during the 2370s as a result of the Dominion War.

In short Starfleet is the lifeform infrastructure of the Federation (which the US Military is not). It makes it work. It handles logistics, infrastructure, civil affairs, scientific research, even health care... and yes, it does military matters too. That makes it like nothing in the world today. But that's fine, because it's not the world of today.

Regardless of the closest modern analogue, Starfleet in the 24th century is clearly the provider and maintainer of the principle infrastructure that keeps the United Federation of Planets a consistent entity. It is perhaps this post-Khitomer development (made possible by the end of the Cold War with the Klingons), along with the introduction of the Excelsior class, and then later on replicator technology, that most made the Federation of the 24th century a tighter structured entity than the far looser one of the 23rd. Logically, that would directly figure to the explosive growth of the 24th century Federation too. (note: if you read the Chronological rewatch thread, one of my main points is that the Warp 9-capable Excelsior-class was pretty much a prerequisite for the 24th century's "Large Federation over the "small-ish" Federation of the 2nd half of 23rd century, enabled by the Warp 8 Constitution Class).
 
Because designating them a simple military organization is a bad (and sloppy) fit. What constitutes "military" has changed just in the past 60 years, 100 years, 300 years and let alone 200, 400 and 1200 years into the future.
Then it's not a sloppy fit if the definition has changed, largely because what Starfleet does has been encompassed by militaries of the past. Call it what you will but saying point blank "it's not a military" is disingenuous at best.
 
Because designating them a simple military organization is a bad (and sloppy) fit. What constitutes "military" has changed just in the past 60 years, 100 years, 300 years and let alone 200, 400 and 1200 years into the future.

I disagree, for a couple of fairly simple reason that in order make it not fit, you have contract the definition of military from the definition that it's held for nearly a hundred years (the uniformed official forces that fight the wars), and ignore the historical trend of at least 350 years or so to increasingly expand the definition of military (in the 16th Century definition refered only to infantry and calvalry for the most part).
 
It's not pedantic or inaccurate to say "the US Military did not fight World War I, the National Army did and some of that went on to form the inter-war military that the World War II military was based around". The National Army was formed around the skeleton of the far smaller US Army.
Oh, yes, it totally is both pedantic and inaccurate, and in other words completely untrue, to say that. It's a straw man of Wicker Man proportions that the US military of 1918 was the US military of 1942, or 1946, or is of 2021.

The US military is nothing more or less than the military forces of the United States. It is not a formal term. it is not a proper noun. It is descriptive. The proper noun is the United States Armed Forces. The organization of US Armed Forces has changed over the history of the United States. Not one soul here has questioned that, nor has anyone, as far as I know, proposed that the organization of Federation armed forces (note that that is not capitalized) has not changed over the history of the Federation.
 
Trying to shoehorn what Starfleet is into modern terms makes no sense.
Star Trek is a show being watched by modern day audiences. It needs to be presented in terms the modern audience will understand. The modern audience understands what a military is and therefore it makes the most sense to present Starfleet as that. Now you can go on all you want that what is or isn't a military in the 23rd and 24th centuries will be different that what is a military today and that's different than what was a military in 1820, and maybe that's so, but the typical audience doesn't care about such nuances. If they ask "what is Starfleet" the simplest answer that will keep their attention is "future military in space." A lesson they knew on TOS which is why, despite what was previously posted about what the intent in the writer's guide was, the episodes themselves stuck to depicting Starfleet operating in much the same manner a military does.
The most developed, mature Starfleet that we see is of the 2360s and 2370s of course. And we see lots of strange things to our eyes.
  • We see uniformed civilians with no ranks or weird ranks (Kosinski).
  • We see Starfleet running or co-running major scientific institutes across every field of study imaginable. We see Starfleet as front line diplomats, working in tandem with civilian diplomats.
  • We see Starfleet negotiating trade deals and peace agreements, and facilitating interstellar relations, including the Federation wide communications network.
All of those things can and have happened in militaries of today.
We see Starfleet running a care center for illicitly Augmented humans.
When did Starfleet do that? Assuming you're referring to Darwin Station from TNG Unnatural Selection, that was a civilian outpost, not Starfleet.
Military matters would be part, but not the defining part, of what Starfleet's mission profile is. The US Military's primary mission is deterrence - to prevent an attack on the United States through nuclear, biological, chemical, or conventional weapons, and to maintain the peace in key regions of Earth to prevent the development of a major military conflict the US would get drawn into. This is not Starfleet's primary mission. This is something it can do, but it is not why it exists. That makes it fundamentally different from the US military. But it is also something that likely waxes and wanes. From the 2390s to 2271, when the biggest military threat (Borg attack at Wolf 359 excluded) was the Cardassian Border Wars, military matters declined in importance compared to the 2280s, and then surged to be by far the most important thing during the 2370s as a result of the Dominion War.
But that just comes down to the often asked question when people try to make that point: if Starfleet is not the Federation's military, what is? Are we really supposed to believe that an interstellar government that was originally born out of a military alliance living in a galaxy where there are several other antagonistic superpowers or an enemy that can not be negotiated with are really not going to bother with having a dedicated military and let all defensive needs be handled by an exploration service who view defense as "secondary" to their primary purpose?

And if defense is secondary, then why does Starfleet have the Federation's only canonical intelligence services? Starfleet Intelligence is obviously a part of Starfleet, while Section 31 originates from the Starfleet Charter. Honestly, even if we admit Starfleet is a military, this set up seems weird, the Federation really should have its own civilian intelligence agency rather than only having military intelligence agencies. But in this scenario where Starfleet is allegedly not a military, how do you explain explorers sending spies out among the galaxy? Are those spies only functioning in a scientific and exploratory sense and not at all a defensive one, or one related to Federation security and protection?
 
if starfleet isn't the military where is the ufp's fucking military during the dominion war?

... or any other war for that matter

there needed to be some serious roughnecks to tell bennyboy: stand aside and let professionals handle those spoon faces* / klingons / whatever (especially those breen are nothing an amateur like sisko can handle)

---

* that's not me that's roughnecks talk
 
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It often doesn't, too often militaries have literally overthrown, taken over the government, even without that extreme they can exercise excessive influence.
colonel west comes to mind, doesn't he?



... but then he's obviously a changeling
 
if starfleet isn't the military where is the ufp's fucking military during the dominion war?

... or any other war for that matter
Yeah, starting with "Balance of Terror" and "Errand of Mercy," with "Arena" thrown in for good measure.

Your rhetorical question is basically the thread bomb that blows up the thread.

edit - Also asked by @The Wormhole:

But that just comes down to the often asked question when people try to make that point: if Starfleet is not the Federation's military, what is?
 
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It often doesn't, too often militaries have literally overthrown, taken over the government, even without that extreme they can exercise excessive influence.
And that happened with Starfleet too...

...but, Starfleet isn't the military so it can't be bad when that happens. :shifty:
Yeah, starting with "Balance of Terror" and "Errand of Mercy," with "Arena" thrown in for good measure.

Your rhetorical question is basically the thread bomb that blows up the thread.
It just comes down to selective ignoring of what's presented on screen and justifying personal animosity towards military organizations.
 
I *think* we hit something interesting here.
(...)the historical trend of at least 350 years or so to increasingly expand the definition of military (in the 16th Century definition refered only to infantry and calvalry for the most part).

But that just comes down to the often asked question when people try to make that point: if Starfleet is not the Federation's military, what is? Are we really supposed to believe that an interstellar government that was originally born out of a military alliance living in a galaxy where there are several other antagonistic superpowers or an enemy that can not be negotiated with are really not going to bother with having a dedicated military and let all defensive needs be handled by an exploration service who view defense as "secondary" to their primary purpose?

(...)Honestly, even if we admit Starfleet is a military, this set up seems weird, the Federation really should have its own civilian intelligence agency rather than only having military intelligence agencies.
Yes, Starfleet is the Federation's military. And, following real world historical trends, the definition of "military" continues to expand as needs and circumstances change.

However, given the opinions voiced by some personnel, I go back to my OP: Starfleet is BIG because the Federation is HUGE. It's not only the Federation's military, but also encompasses many other functions essential to a Federation that spans light years of space and tons of different member species and cultures. As I wrote previously about perspectives varying, it makes sense for Picard (for example) to think of Starfleet as primarily an exploratory organization because that's what HIS Starfleet is. Like improv, it's "yes, and." :D

@The Wormhole has a great point about intelligence agencies. I think this comes from writers who know less than nothing about them. :lol: Even with my limited knowledge, I know there are military and non-military intelligence organizations!
 
It's not pedantic or inaccurate to say "the US Military did not fight World War I, the National Army did and some of that went on to form the inter-war military that the World War II military was based around". The National Army was formed around the skeleton of the far smaller US Army.
Oh, yes, it totally is both pedantic and inaccurate, and in other words completely untrue, to say that. It's a straw man of Wicker Man proportions that the US military of 1918 was the US military of 1942, or 1946, or is of 2021.

I can't agree enough. Only in very technical discussions do people need to get into the distinctions between regular, reserve and drafted wartime forces. Certainly the national leaders of the time considered them as one big military (or naval) organization.
 
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