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Is Starfleet a military organization?

've said it before, and I'll say it again: Starfleet is the military, it's just not militaristic. Can't we see the difference?
i'm fine with that - starfleet is the federation military - it (normally) behaves nicer than the militaries we have now but then it will need a couple of hours before the starfleet charta can be signed, won't it.

... what i don't get though is wtf are wearing engineering and security personnel the same waffenfarbe? is it because the us army had only three which (probably a coinsistance :ack:) were gold red and blue for cavalry, artillery and infantry respectively?
 
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True, most of what we have seen so far of Starfleet is the "navy" - i.e. the starship crews. With the aforementioned three divisions - command, engineering/security, and sciences. So just add one more division (with its associated uniform color) - Marines. It's all still Starfleet. One military force to fulfill every need - logical and efficient.
In space, the InterStellar Navy AKA StarFleet is the backbone of the organization.

You want to stop enemy StarShips, you need StarFleet.

You want to deliver troops on the ground to take an objective intact?, you need StarFleet to carry said troops.

You need to carry fighters to the sector / star system where combat is being held?

StarFleet and her StarShips will be the ones doing so.

Even if there is special Ops, StarFleet StarShips will be delivering said Special Ops team to the Engagement Zone.

If there's Intelligence operations to be had, a specialized stealth StarShip can be employed.

You need logistics delivered? I'm sure StarFleet has an entire Logistics Fleet ready to deliver, serve, & fulfill.

Even through enemy forces blockading or jamming, the Logistics Fleet will get to you.

There's no role within a multi-branch InterStellar Integrated Armed Service within the UFP that StarFleet isn't entangled with in a critical way.
 
... and btw, the actual surgeon general of the us seems to be wearing a us navy uniform which i think is quite reasonable considering the fact that he's a us navy vice admiral

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivek_Murthy

Military service isn't a requirement for the position of US Surgeon General, nor is it a barrier.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Starfleet is the military, it's just not militaristic. Can't we see the difference?

I prefer to think of Starfleet as a Swiss Army Knife with a larger than usual blade rather than a dedicated combat dagger :techman:.
 
Because designating them a simple military organization is a bad (and sloppy) fit. What constitutes "military" has changed just in the past 60 years, 100 years, 300 years and let alone 200, 400 and 1200 years into the future.

You're overthinking this.

"Military" = "the organization charged by the state with using large-scale violence in defense of the state."

That's clearly Starfleet. Nothing about that definition precludes Starfleet from also being the UFP's primary exploratory and scientific research service, or from also being a secondary diplomatic service to back up the Federation Diplomatic Corps. But it is clearly also the Federation's military.

Trying to shoehorn what Starfleet is into modern terms makes no sense. It's like trying to liken the modern US Military to the Military of 1800. Yeah they share the name of the organization and the linage, but in almost no sense are they the same.

No. They're the same in the most fundamental sense: They are the organization charged with using large-scale violence to defend the state.

Technically speaking, the modern US Military is a creation of World War II and everything before then is a series of adhoc armies erected around a lean meager skeletons. It's not pedantic or inaccurate to say "the US Military did not fight World War I, the National Army did and some of that went on to form the inter-war military that the World War II military was based around". The National Army was formed around the skeleton of the far smaller US Army.

That is absolutely pedantic and legally inaccurate.

If we want to liken it to anything, I think there is one fitting organizational type: a uniformed civil service. While the United States has six armed military branches (Army, Navy, Air Force, Space Force, Marines, Coast Guard) there are two more non-armed uniformed services - the NOAA corps, the uniformed branch of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the Public Health Service Commissioned Corps, the uniformed branch of the US Public Health Service, part of the Department of Health and Human Services. If anything, Starfleet is more like them, rather than the US Military.

The problem with this idea is that the NOAA Corps and the Public Health Service Commissioned Corps don't fight the United States's wars the way Starfleet fights the Federation's wars.

The US Military's primary mission is deterrence - to prevent an attack on the United States through nuclear, biological, chemical, or conventional weapons, and to maintain the peace in key regions of Earth to prevent the development of a major military conflict the US would get drawn into.

Well, no. The U.S. military's primary mission is the defense of the United States. Deterrence is a manner of achieving that goal, but it is not the goal in and of itself.

This is not Starfleet's primary mission. This is something it can do, but it is not why it exists.

Pure nonsense. The Federation was founded in the wake of the Earth-Romulus War. The defense of the Federation is Starfleet's co-primary mission, alongside and equal to the co-primary missions of exploration, scientific research, and diplomacy.

And if defense is secondary, then why does Starfleet have the Federation's only canonical intelligence services? Starfleet Intelligence is obviously a part of Starfleet, while Section 31 originates from the Starfleet Charter. Honestly, even if we admit Starfleet is a military, this set up seems weird, the Federation really should have its own civilian intelligence agency rather than only having military intelligence agencies.

For whatever it's worth, in the continuity of the ST novel line -- a continuity that is being ended with the Star Trek: Coda trilogy as a result of PIC S1 canonically establishing a different history for the 2380s than the novels had established -- had established that the civilian Federation Security Agency had at least three divisions: a domestic law enforcement division; a presidential and diplomatic protection division; and a foreign intelligence division that served as the UFP's primary civilian intelligence service (making it, basically, a combination of the FBI, Secret Service, and CIA; or, in British terms, a combination of MI5, the Special Branch, and MI6). They also established the Federation Reconnaissance Office, a civilian agency focusing on signals intelligence (aka, the Federation's equivalent to the NSA).

But in this scenario where Starfleet is allegedly not a military, how do you explain explorers sending spies out among the galaxy? Are those spies only functioning in a scientific and exploratory sense and not at all a defensive one, or one related to Federation security and protection?

Y e p.

The Wormhole said:
Is there a reason people in the future would abandon a system history has shown works?

It often doesn't, too often militaries have literally overthrown, taken over the government, even without that extreme they can exercise excessive influence.

I mean, sure, but that's a function of political culture -- it's not inherent to the presence of a military per se.

I *think* we hit something interesting here.

Yes, Starfleet is the Federation's military. And, following real world historical trends, the definition of "military" continues to expand as needs and circumstances change.

However, given the opinions voiced by some personnel, I go back to my OP: Starfleet is BIG because the Federation is HUGE. It's not only the Federation's military, but also encompasses many other functions essential to a Federation that spans light years of space and tons of different member species and cultures. As I wrote previously about perspectives varying, it makes sense for Picard (for example) to think of Starfleet as primarily an exploratory organization because that's what HIS Starfleet is. Like improv, it's "yes, and." :D

I think that's a pretty reasonable interpretation.

... and that's the reason why even those klingons use that ridiculous us judical systen

i expect better from them - like a lot more trial by combat (maybe rudy g could be a referee)

Except the Klingons really don't use the U.S. judicial system. There was no jury present at Kirk's and McCoy's trial in TUC, the judge was openly biased against them, there was no right to appeal his ruling, and there were no apparent legal protections for defendants such as a right to refrain from self-incrimination or a right to confront their accusers. The trial system resembled more the kinds of trials we've seen in numerous cultures throughout history, with biased proceedings and judges whose rulings can't be appealed.

Well, I don't think Starfleet, as we know it, should be the military arm of the Federation. It should be a general purpose exploration and courier service. I think the Federation should have distinct armed forces and should include a service branch dedicated to space.

I don't think that's a very efficient allocation of resources. I would, however, agree that it would make more sense if Starfleet had dedicated defense, exploration, and diplomacy branches rather than having its ships all trying to be jacks of all trades.

Is the status quo working?

Well, there are four Star Trek TV shows airing and a fifth in post-production, which is literally more Star Trek shows than have ever been in production simultaneously before. So I think the status quo just might be working... ;)
 
I prefer to think of Starfleet as a Swiss Army Knife with a larger than usual blade rather than a dedicated combat dagger :techman:.
I'd like to think of StarFleet as the knife collector who has every type of knife design and type ever made and will use the right knife for the job.
 
Yes. /thread
I'd like to think of StarFleet as the knife collector who has every type of knife design and type ever made and will use the right knife for the job.
They're a military organization, but they're poor at it, especially with anything involving ground combat.
 
Ranks? Firefighters have ranks and the US Surgeon General isn't leading anyone into battle any time soon.

Firefighters aren't trained and equipped to fight wars. Unlike Starfleet.

... and btw, the actual surgeon general of the us seems to be wearing a us navy uniform which i think is quite reasonable considering the fact that he's a us navy vice admiral

He's not a navy vice admiral, he's a vice admiral* in the US Public Health Service Commissioned Corps. The uniforms look much like navy uniforms with differences in buttons, corps insignia, cap devices, and a narrow maroon line in the cap's gold chinstrap.

*Legally his rank is "surgeon general," the navy titles are used by courtesy but aren't official.

... what i don't get though is wtf are wearing engineering and security personnel the same waffenfarbe?

That's definitely an oddity, my best guess is the categories are for "those who control the ship," "those who do science," and "everybody else."

is it because the us army had only three which (probably a coinsistance :ack:) were gold red and blue for cavalry, artillery and infantry respectively?

Probably not. There were never only three; even in the Civil War time enlisted men had crimson for ordnance and green for medical, and officers had dark blue for "staff," which was basically everyone who wasn't infantry, cavalry or artillery.
 
Surgeon general isn't a rank, is it? The word "general" is basically an adjective, relating to "surgeon".

It's no more a rank than "attorney general".

US legislation uses the term "grade" for what we are calling "rank." According to 42 USC §207, that is the title of the grade. The other grades for USPHS medical officers (physicians) are:
  • Medical Director (captain)
  • Senior Surgeon (commander)
  • Surgeon (lieutenant commander)
  • Senior Assistant Surgeon (lieutenant)
  • Assistant Surgeon (lieutenant j.g.)
  • Junior Assistant Surgeon (ensign)
Until the end of WW1, both the US and British navies used similar titles for "staff corps" (USN) or "civil branch" (RN) officers; only the "line" or "military branch" officers used the traditional naval ranks. "Surgeon general" was the title of a senior medical rank in both services.
 
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Nope. Starfleet is an exploratory/diplomatic body with broad police powers; Starfleet is occasionally tasked with assuming a military posture. Ranks? Firefighters have ranks and the US Surgeon General isn't leading anyone into battle any time soon.
When a Trek war needs to be fought you don't call Starfleet 'occassionally', you call them every damn time! And the last time fire service duties included combat and defending a sovereign state was.....
 
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Starfleet is the military, it's just not militaristic. Can't we see the difference?
Yes! I honestly think that's what many of the writers were going for (same with the money thing) - trying to give an optimistic vision of a future where humans no longer fight wars of aggression & conquest (are motivated by greed and acquisition with money) BUT also trying to have action and adventure (to bring in & keep viewers) and be able to do lots of different kinds of stories. They also weren't trying to invent the "how", just inspire with the concepts - let's face it, political and economic minutiae are fun for us to discuss, but not necessarily engaging television. :lol:

I prefer to think of Starfleet as a Swiss Army Knife with a larger than usual blade rather than a dedicated combat dagger :techman:.
I like that metaphor. :hugegrin:

The Federation was founded in the wake of the Earth-Romulus War. The defense of the Federation is Starfleet's co-primary mission, alongside and equal to the co-primary missions of exploration, scientific research, and diplomacy.
"Co-primary" is also good.

I think that's a pretty reasonable interpretation.
Thank you! You all have helped me evolve and refine my thoughts. I appreciate it.

I wish...
Sorry! Mea cupla, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. :)

He's not a navy vice admiral, he's a vice admiral* in the US Public Health Service Commissioned Corps. The uniforms look much like navy uniforms with differences in buttons, corps insignia, cap devices, and a narrow maroon line in the cap's gold chinstrap. *Legally his rank is "surgeon general," the navy titles are used by courtesy but aren't official.
I've learned something today! Thank you for this and the USPHS grades. Very interesting!

That's definitely an oddity, my best guess is the categories are for "those who control the ship," "those who do science," and "everybody else."
LOL! :lol:
 
Engineering and security are both in the broad "operations" category.

And yet in the RW, Engineering is mostly a category of it's own (although below-decks Armory crew are usually part of Engineering), whereas Bridge/CIC Tactical Officers and Security Officers are part of General Duties/Deck (Roughly Command or perhaps a non-Engineering Operations Department if you squint).
 
I'd like to think of StarFleet as the knife collector who has every type of knife design and type ever made and will use the right knife for the job.

And when the Federation needs a gun they should have in their employ an actual military organization.
 
And when the Federation needs a gun they should have in their employ an actual military organization.
So, Starfleet? For good, ill and everything in between. I mean, even in early TNG, in "Angel One" (I believe) Picard is eager to have the away team back as they were being assigned to the Romulan Neutral Zone due to a "Romulan battlecruiser" being sighted. Picard calls it "insurance." Sounds like deterrence to me.
 
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