Except that doesn't explain Jake or Joe Sisko. Yeah his dad/son is in Starfleet, but I doubt Starfleet takes care of every family member for all time. Jake does turn 18 eventually during the series after all.
Is it the Federation, or Just Earth that Doesn't Use Money
- Thread starter DeimosMasque
- Start date
Except that doesn't explain Jake or Joe Sisko. Yeah his dad/son is in Starfleet, but I doubt Starfleet takes care of every family member for all time. Jake does turn 18 eventually during the series after all.
Your objection is unclear.
It makes sense to me that if you work for Starfleet, Starfleet takes care of you. The rules probably vary for dependent family members.
Joe Sisko doesn't work for Starfleet, and when Jake attains his legal majority (whatever that might be), presumably Starfleet will expect him to take steps toward arranging his own life. Who knows what the rules may be regarding parental obligations? In the real world, there aren't even consistent rules in the same country. In Canada, legal age varies among the provinces, and some provinces have varying expectations of whether a university student is still considered a dependent (for tax purposes, assuming the student is under the age of 25).
Is Jake living on the street, scrounging for crumbs?
Jake Sisko tells Nog the reason he doesn't have money is because he is HUMAN, not because he is a member of Starfleet.
NOG: It's my money, Jake. If you want to bid at the auction, use your own money.
JAKE: I'm human, I don't have any money.
NOG: It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favor of some philosophy of self-enhancement.
JAKE: Hey, watch it. There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.
NOG: What does that mean exactly?
JAKE: It means... It means we don't need money.
NOG: Well if you don't need money, then you certainly don't need mine.
JAKE: I'm human, I don't have any money.
NOG: It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favor of some philosophy of self-enhancement.
JAKE: Hey, watch it. There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.
NOG: What does that mean exactly?
JAKE: It means... It means we don't need money.
NOG: Well if you don't need money, then you certainly don't need mine.
Emphasis mine.
It's literally just a human thing, and everyone else in the universe thinks it's weird and stupid.
Of course not. The Replimat is free and so are the replicators in his quarters. But holosuites cost money, and so do the Dabo tables, and more than likely, so do the Dabo Girls.
Thanks, I already read the quoted/emphasized material the last time it was copy/pasted.
Jake is the son of a Starfleet captain. In that world, it's basically all the same.
Are you suggesting that no human on a frontier world would use money? What about the on-ship economy on Voyager? Should Tuvok, Neelix, Kes, and the other nonhuman crew be the only ones allowed to trade and barter with each other? Is there something genetically different about 24th century humans that makes it impossible for them to use money?
Of course not. It's a cultural thing, entwined with the legal system of wherever they happen to be. On DS9, you're not going to have a hell of a lot of recreational opportunities unless you learn to use that icky money (latinum) if you want to gamble, date the Dabo girls, eat at any of the restaurants, or use the holosuites.
Picard would be so proud of Jake for swallowing the Starfleet line.
No it "basically" isn't. "Starfleet" is not a species, and even in the 24th century "humanity" does not mean "Starfleet officers and/or their next of kin".
So it has nothing to do with Starfleet, it's just a human thing.
I'm suggesting no human on a frontier world would NEED money, assuming of course it's a frontier world under Earth jurisdiction.
But what you NEED, and what you HAVE are not always the same thing. Jake's never needed money before, so he's never bothered to get any. Nog, on the other hand, comes from a place where money is EVERYTHING, and goes out of his way to make money because he figures some day he's going to need it.
Of course not. Neelix and Kes don't have any money either. Kes is a refugee and an outcast and Neelix is hyper-squirrel who was literally eating out of a giant garbage pile when they found him. NOBODY on Voyager has any money, which is why everything they do involves some sort of barter system.
It's not the Starfleet line, it's the Human philosophy on Earth. It's obviously not all that applicable in places OTHER than Earth, far from Earth's post-scarcity society and single-payer economy. Get far enough out on the frontier where "all of the problems haven't been solved" as Sisko once puts it, and you're going to find out that none of the humans give a shit about all the work you did to better humanity, and that thing they just handed you on a data padd is your BILL, which must be paid in latinum, or else say goodbye to your kneecaps.
My objection is that you suggested that it was "Starfleet" that doesn't use money. That Earth, and the humans and aliens that live on it do. If that is true, then Jake would wholly unprepared for the way the rest of the Galaxy operates being a privileged Starfleet Brat who doesn't understand Currency Based Economics that is used by the rest of the Federation members and the nearby powers.
The scene I'm coming from doesn't suggest that. He suggests to Nog that as a civilian Human, he doesn't use money because civilian Human's don't need money.
The concept can be forgiven when Picard is preaching the Gospel to Lily because he was doing an in brief. He was on an invaded ship, talking to a person centuries behind his own world's progress. He was giving the "Short-Short Version."
Jake spouts off the Gospel and even reveals that he doesn't even understand what it means. He just says as a Human he doesn't need money because they better each themselves and the whole of Humanity, rather than have money.
Considering that this is after being out at DS9 for about five years, and this is the first time Jake has really needed money for anything really, and it is only because he needs to bid in an auction on an Earth relic in the possession of some aliens that deal with money on Ferengi terms. The other human bidding on it is quite clearly a weirdo by most standards.
Jake has no normal use or need for money for anything he does on the station or on Earth. This was a special occasion in dealing with an alien species in an effort to make his father happy after the stress the buildup to the Dominion War was causing. Nothing else on the station caused him to need money. Dabo girls, jamba sticks, whatever....none of that ever seemed to be an issue. Sometimes he'd do barter stuff with Nog because it was fun and a challenge, but he never needed the money from it.
Jake has no normal use or need for money for anything he does on the station or on Earth. This was a special occasion in dealing with an alien species in an effort to make his father happy after the stress the buildup to the Dominion War was causing. Nothing else on the station caused him to need money. Dabo girls, jamba sticks, whatever....none of that ever seemed to be an issue. Sometimes he'd do barter stuff with Nog because it was fun and a challenge, but he never needed the money from it.
Yes, I'm aware that Starfleet is not a species. However, it is a subculture of the Federation. For the people whose entire adult/working lives are spent in, and around, Starfleet, it can seem like the default way of living and therefore the only right and normal way.
Right, because frontier worlds always have the up-to-date modern conveniences. That's why they're frontier worlds, and not older established worlds.
.I don't disagree with this.
When was it ever stated that Kes was an outcast? She got herself into trouble with the Kazon because she sneaked out of the Ocampa city to explore and found more than she bargained for (colloquially speaking). Your description of Neelix is offensive.
Yes, I am aware of why the ship economy on Voyager developed as it did: They were 75 years away from the nearest Federation bank, and suddenly the old system was rendered useless. So the replicator rations/holodeck "currency" was born. I've been pointing this out consistently around here for years.
Yes, that's why Joe Sisko runs his restaurant - just for the fun of it, and not because it's a viable business.
Picard is basically part of the 1% of Earth in the 24th century in that he never needs to worry about ANYTHING. He will never go hungry, never want for shelter, health care, clothes, or anything else. His fault is that he thinks this is true of everyone else on Earth and he'll preach it to anyone who will stand still long enough to hear him say it.
You are not going to convince me that ALL humans on Earth think like Picard does. Evidently Sisko does, and Jake absorbed that attitude. It's not "I don't need money because Starfleet takes care of me" but rather "I don't need money because I'm HUMAN and we're just so enlightened that all we ever want is to better ourselves, blah... blah... blah...".
Evidently this line of preachy brainwashing didn't work on people like Vash, or Tom Paris. Sure, Tom Paris does eventually grow up to be a responsible officer, husband, and father, but he's always got this streak in his personality that figures there's really nothing all that wrong with trying to get ahead while still doing his job.
If Jake had not become friends with Nog and acquainted with the realities of societies that use currency and had this whole money concept explained to him, I think he would indeed have been completely unprepared for life outside of the shelter of Starfleet.
So Jake could just walk in to any business on Earth, help himself to whatever he wanted, and walk out again? I rather doubt that.
Picard was preaching at Lily, just like he preached at the 20th century people they happened to find early on in the series. His whole manner was incredibly condescending, and I find it completely unrealistic to expect that the entire Federation runs like that, or even all of Earth. You're always going to find people who don't agree with this, and they're the ones who will either cause trouble or they'll head off to the frontier worlds or alien planets where they won't feel so stifled.
I'm not talking about Jake and the baseball card specifically. I'm talking about Jake's entire outlook in general. As I said: Picard would be so pleased with him for spouting the party line.
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Nothing Jake does as a civilian human contradicts Picard when dealing with anything that is not an outside alien group that uses currency. The baseball card is I believe literally the only time that Jake has any use for money. He gets no payment for his news stories. He got no money from his novels. Quark thought it was a bad business move since he thinks in terms of money and profit, but Jake didn't seem to care at all about the idea of money for his services, and this seems to be the common thread when it comes to humans from Earth in the 24th century.
There are those like Vash who live for money, but she actually seems to be into it for the thrill more than the money. She gets off on adventure and doing deals from what I recall.
The 23rd century might be different and still have currency based economics until the last quarter of the century. On the other hand, people like Cyrano Jones might just be trading because they enjoy the haggling. Harry Mudd is a criminal....he has other issues.
There are those like Vash who live for money, but she actually seems to be into it for the thrill more than the money. She gets off on adventure and doing deals from what I recall.
The 23rd century might be different and still have currency based economics until the last quarter of the century. On the other hand, people like Cyrano Jones might just be trading because they enjoy the haggling. Harry Mudd is a criminal....he has other issues.
I fear you are crediting my post with rather more gravitas than it was ever supposed to possess. Sarcasm was the order of the day
If we take what Jake said seriously, it would mean two things; either he doesn't own anything or he gets everything free. One would mean he just orders food or clothing as needed from the replicators and goes about his business.
The other would mean that if he does own things, it's all provided free from the replicators. Everything is free.
But it comes back to this again-- If everything is free, then people must work for free.
Jake was employed by the Fed News Service and didn't get paid for it. He "sold" a book and didn't get paid and didn't expect to get paid. That would have to mean Data's maid didn't get paid for the same reason Jake didn't get paid. She does it for free.
And it gets even weirder when you get to people like Kassidy Yates. She is a human, and yet appears to work to make money. It's more like she has to work to make money. She even went as far as to break the law in order to fulfill her contract with the Maquis.
Ironically, this is exactly what Picard and others have said humans are supposed to now be free from. Having to work out of necessity.
The other would mean that if he does own things, it's all provided free from the replicators. Everything is free.
But it comes back to this again-- If everything is free, then people must work for free.
Jake was employed by the Fed News Service and didn't get paid for it. He "sold" a book and didn't get paid and didn't expect to get paid. That would have to mean Data's maid didn't get paid for the same reason Jake didn't get paid. She does it for free.
And it gets even weirder when you get to people like Kassidy Yates. She is a human, and yet appears to work to make money. It's more like she has to work to make money. She even went as far as to break the law in order to fulfill her contract with the Maquis.
Ironically, this is exactly what Picard and others have said humans are supposed to now be free from. Having to work out of necessity.
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Funniest thing that I've read today. Well done.
Picard envoking Marie Antoinette 'we no longer need bread like you poor 21st century misfits we are too busy bettering ourselves with cake'.
No they do notWhy wouldn't they? All states in the USA use the US dollar, all Canadian provinces use the Canadian dollar, all members of the EU use the euro, etc.
Pity, because that's exactly what it is. Paging @Sci...
Another example of canon getting its knickers in a twist with contradictions?
The we don't need/use/have no idea of money line depends on the plot and the script. No one bothered to explain how it all works.
Nine of the countries in the European Union don't use the Euro.
Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Sweden, and the United Kingdom.
Of the members of the OAS, only three use the same money (America, Ecuador and El Salvador use the US dollar), all the rest have their own money.
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In some (very) localized parts of Canada, Canadian Tire money is accepted at businesses other than Canadian Tire. It was rather amusing the last time the Canadian dollar was above par; we could honestly say that Canadian Tire money was worth more than the American dollar. 
I should think that somewhere on Earth there just might be some place that Picard's "we-live-in-utopia" heart would despise: A currency exchange for off-world economies.
Some science fiction authors have given a great deal of thought as to how interstellar economies would work (the Imperium in Dune uses solaris (official currency), spice (for barter), and water (on Arrakis). The Dorsai novels' interplanetary trade is in people and their professional skills (the planets have their own local economy, of course).
It's a shame the TNG writers didn't do their homework.
I should think that somewhere on Earth there just might be some place that Picard's "we-live-in-utopia" heart would despise: A currency exchange for off-world economies.
Some science fiction authors have given a great deal of thought as to how interstellar economies would work (the Imperium in Dune uses solaris (official currency), spice (for barter), and water (on Arrakis). The Dorsai novels' interplanetary trade is in people and their professional skills (the planets have their own local economy, of course).
It's a shame the TNG writers didn't do their homework.
Panama uses American dollars.
Exactly.
I always got the impression they did that to make humans look more exciting and interesting, since if they really went with the no money thing it would be hard to explain people's motive's for doing things in some of these episodes.
I guess we could say that Kassidy worked as a freighter because it was challenging for her, but then you get to the part where she starts delivering supplies to the Maquis. She knew she was breaking the law, but acted as if she really needed to do it, out of necessity, to get paid.
She didn't have to do it. She could have traveled back to earth where she can get what she needs or wants for free. (According Jake and Picard and some others)
Same thing with Liam Bilby, the human who was in the Orion Syndicate (organized crime). Hustling and risking life and death and prison to make money? All he has to do is travel to earth. It makes no sense.
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