Is it the Federation, or Just Earth that Doesn't Use Money

[Tenacity]

Because you don't transfer the "money" to another person. You use them to obtain what you need from society.

Okay. Let's say that I'm the one who Jim Kirk sold his house too (the one in GEN). I exchange my money for his property.

I now own a house.

Later, I sell that house to a buyer, I exchange my property for his money.

I now have money.

How would this work under your proposed system?

Basically, the "money" here is the indicator of how much of society resources you could divert for personal use.

Okay, what about resources that are not "society's resources?" Earlier today I got my hair cut, I exchanged money in return for the skills of the stylist and to maintain the shop itself (utilities, rent, etc.).

The point is not the money by themselves. The point is, that money's could not be accumulated by any other means than productive work on behalf of society.

This suggests that everyone who wants income has to work for the state.

That Robert Picard doesn't own his land (land is a form of value)and the product of that land (wine), and when he sells that product to individuals, groups and perhaps a distributor, he receives no financial compensation from those entities.

And if not the state, then which group of individuals decides if a certain type of work is to be considered "productive?"

 

[The Old Mixer]

Again there's the analogy to major religions. You can describe the core beliefs of, say, Roman Catholicism from a study of scripture, commentaries and papal mandates. But then you run into episodes like the Spanish Inquisition, or the edict from Cuban bishops that raping ones own slaves is not technically a sin (or could be considered a blessing since her potential children would be liberated from the "curse of ham") and you'd be forced to think "What the fuck, Catholicism?"

Let's not bring religion into this topic, especially if it's going to be singling out a particular religion. There's a reason that we like to keep discussion of controversial topics such as religion and politics confined to Miscellaneous or The Neutral Zone.

 

[JRoss]

What do you all think?

I wrote a sidebar in the new Star Trek Adventures RPG to address this. It's an in-universe advertisement for the Federations Colonization Office. Basically it comes down to Earth (and probably the other highly developed planets) being post-scarcity socialist states where you get land allotments based on a waiting list and work experience. People might volunteer to be waiters in Sisko's restaurant in exchange for cooking apprenticeships, not because that's the job that they want.

Colonists instead get to be capitalists if they choose (or socialists, communists, whatever). So, no money in the core, maybe money out on the frontier. It's not canon, of course, but it did go through CBS for approval and they didn't make changes to it.

 

[DeimosMasque]

I wrote a sidebar in the new Star Trek Adventures RPG to address this. It's an in-universe advertisement for the Federations Colonization Office. Basically it comes down to Earth (and probably the other highly developed planets) being post-scarcity socialist states where you get land allotments based on a waiting list and work experience. People might volunteer to be waiters in Sisko's restaurant in exchange for cooking apprenticeships, not because that's the job that they want.

Colonists instead get to be capitalists if they choose (or socialists, communists, whatever). So, no money in the core, maybe money out on the frontier. It's not canon, of course, but it did go through CBS for approval and they didn't make changes to it.

That is... actually really cool. I still have my old Deep Space Nine RPG book lying around. And after I heard there was a new Star Trek RPG I've been chopping at the bit to get it. (Dang Wedding! I want my disposable income back!!)

It's really awesome that you sort of addressed this actual idea.

 

[JRoss]

That is... actually really cool. I still have my old Deep Space Nine RPG book lying around. And after I heard there was a new Star Trek RPG I've been chopping at the bit to get it. (Dang Wedding! I want my disposable income back!!)

It's really awesome that you sort of addressed this actual idea.

Thanks for the kind words. I did it in as broad strokes as I could, in order to make it more palatable to the CBS folks. The sidebar reads as an ad. I feel you about the disposable income. I hope you can pick up the book soon. It's got folks who worked on the old Last Unicorn Games line (where your DS9 book comes from) as well as the Decipher line (some folks have worked on all three).

 

[Ithekro]

Okay. Let's say that I'm the one who Jim Kirk sold his house too (the one in GEN). I exchange my money for his property.

I now own a house.

Later, I sell that house to a buyer, I exchange my property for his money.

I now have money.

How would this work under your proposed system?

If I understand the system correctly, there is still no money. I "sell" the house, that mean I move the stuff I was to keep out and hand them the keys, leaving what I don't want or need. Nothing else happens. As the previous owner gets nothing but rid of the house because I don't need it anymore. Be that because I found a better or larger home, or because I am moving to another planet, or I will be on a deep space assignment for the next eight years and don't need to be taking up a house in that time. What other stuff I might have either goes to storage somewhere, or moves with me, or I put it in a reserve someplace to pick up or have shipped to wherever I end up, much like Captain Sisko's African masks and such stuff eventually were shipped out to Deep Space Nine once he became comfortable with the idea that he's stay out there. Later wanting to move to Bajor after retiring from Starfleet. At that point the money thing becomes an unknown as he is dealing with the Bajorans, but is also technically one of their high spiritual leaders as the Emissary to the Prophets and a Hero to their planet....so their might just be people wanting to do stuff for him as a favor or in exchange for a blessing.

 

[Tenacity]

I "sell" the house, that mean I move the stuff I was to keep out

Do you own the "stuff," or is that community property too?

For example Picard's family scrapbook from GEN.

And historically, do you believe there was protest from the general population when the state confiscated all private property?

 

[Ithekro]

Depends if it was confiscated at all. We don't know nor can we know if that happened. Nor do we know if there was a grandfather clause for family estates.

Otherwise it could be like some of the laws that are attempting to be passed in this age where children are not ensured to get their parents property, and it will all go to the state regardless. I think it was suppose to be rolled up with the Death Tax or something like that. Meaning each generation will have to get by on their own, not on the backs of their parents and grandparents. A side effect would make all property state owned because it would automatically become state property on the death of the current user.

 

[DeimosMasque]

@DeimosMasque
It should be noted that "the money" in question in that OP conversation is 5 strips of gold-pressed latinum that Nog kept in a locked box under the bed. So that conversation seems use the word money meaning currency.

Well... yes? I mean I know what Gold Pressed Latinum is. But at the same time. Gold Pressed Latinum has a set value determined by the FCA. And considering that Latinum is a rare metal, that cannot be replicated and is the standard for Ferengi. Meaning it is not a fiat currency and instead judged on the rarity of the metal it's based on.

While you can argue the money vs currency thing, I doubt the writers on DS9 were actually considering the various nuances of the terms and basically were using the two terms interchangeably.

When Jake says "money" he means "Currency Based Economics" which Nog mentions in the same discussion.

 

[Tenacity]

Meaning each generation will have to get by on their own, not on the backs of their parents and grandparents.

This would eliminate multi-generational family businesses, like the Picard property, or even like the corner grocery store.

After a lifetime of hard work you can't hand down that work to your children, because that business is now going to ceased and be doled out to whoever the government chooses.

Open political patronage.

A side effect would make all property state owned because it would automatically become state property on the death of the current user.

Please don't take this personally, but I think this sounds like a horrible system, it would give the state far too much ... well far too much everything. And would strip the populace of the ability for individuals and groups to grow and succeed.

Latinum is a rare metal

Small matter, but Latinum was shown to be a thick fluid at body temperature (Morn's body) and is unlikely to have been a metal.

 

[Takeru]

Small matter, but Latinum was shown to be a thick fluid at body temperature (Morn's body) and is unlikely to have been a metal.

Mercury is liquid at body temperature and below so latinum could be a metal as well although I think it was clear when Morn spit it out.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Earth is a Federation member world just like any other. There's nothing special about Earth, politically speaking (even though the capital buildings are located there). Why would IT be the only one that doesn't use money?

 

[Ithekro]

Please don't take this personally, but I think this sounds like a horrible system, it would give the state far too much ... well far too much everything. And would strip the populace of the ability for individuals and groups to grow and succeed.

I believe it is a proposed British Death Tax that is in the works that would function like this. Also an Inheritance Tax. Along with the American Estate Tax.

 

[Nyotarules]

I believe it is a proposed British Death Tax that is in the works that would function like this. Also an Inheritance Tax. Along with the American Estate Tax.

It would only effect the people who cannot afford to pay the taxes which would be the majority population. Hard to see how a Star Trek TOS like society would develop from that set up since the wealthy and mega rich would pay the taxes and keep their estates and other assets.

 

[Tenacity]

Earth is a Federation member world just like any other.

First off I think Earth does use money, some form of electronic financial transfers.

However, nothing says that all Federation members use the exact same financial/economic system. I've never seen the Federation as a political sovereign state so each member would have their own indigenous financial system. America and Japan have many political and trade connections, but we don't have a single financial system.

So, one or more members could have a system where the government "owns" everything and allocate land, food and various materials to citizens as the government see fit to do. Total central control.

Other members could have a more traditional market economy. Others still could have economic systems I couldn't begin to describe.

China, America, Sweden, the UAE, they're all there.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

However, nothing says that all Federation members use the exact same financial/economic system.

Why wouldn't they? All states in the USA use the US dollar, all Canadian provinces use the Canadian dollar, all members of the EU use the euro, etc.

I've never seen the Federation as a political sovereign state.

Pity, because that's exactly what it is. Paging @Sci...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Earth is a Federation member world just like any other. There's nothing special about Earth, politically speaking (even though the capital buildings are located there). Why would IT be the only one that doesn't use money?

Because they have a single payer economy that regulates all domestic commerce and use standard galactic currency for interplanetary business.

Think of it like a family. Even with five brothers and sisters, parents and grandparents under one roof, you probably don't have to food ingredients from the refrigerator (or from whichever family member originally purchased it) if you want to eat something. You just go in the kitchen and get it. Could be everyone chips in or it could be mostly Grampa, but nobody cares because everybody's fed and everyone wins. But you still need money to buy stuff when you shop OUTSIDE the house.

Maybe the family next door has a rule that "it aint yours unless you bought it" and you can't take anything out of the fridge unless you paid for it. You might see a box of cookies in the pantry and have to make your sister an offer to buy them from her.

One family uses money, the other does not.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Why wouldn't they? All states in the USA use the US dollar, all Canadian provinces use the Canadian dollar, etc.

That's because the USA and Canada are contiguous land-based political entities whose subdivisions are united by history, common language, common ethnic background, and geography. Illinois and indiana don't need to use separate currencies when people in one state can drive 45 minutes to a marketplace in the other whenever they want.

The Federation, not so much. Some of its members are hundreds of light years apart and belong to completely different species with different atmospheric, nutritional and environmental needs. They literally never need to talk to each other at all and have nothing in common except for the fact that they both joined the Federation.

Pity, because that's exactly what it is.

Kind of. In practice, it's probably more like the U.N. or the European Union. Individual members have a degree of sovereignty also, and have official representatives when dealing with people OUTSIDE the Federation, but they're still separate worlds with separate traditions, separate politics, separate economies. Even the EU can be said to be more cohesive since they have a common currency, but it's unlikely the Federation has a standard that all of its members use.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Even the EU can be said to be more cohesive since they have a common currency, but it's unlikely the Federation has a standard that all of its members use.

The Federation uses something called "credits", we've heard about them in several episodes. What credits actually ARE, though, is up for debate.

 

[Timewalker]

So I've been mulling over this one since Star Trek: First Contact first came out in theaters and mentioned the whole "no money" thing in place of the philosophy "Self Improvement" of on the big screen.

Then later slightly mocked on Deep Space Nine by Nog with Jake's whole "It means we don't need money." when he can't explain what the philosophy actually means.

The actual exchange (I bolded some interesting points):

Nog: It's my money, Jake! If you want to bid at the auction, use your own money.
Jake: I'm Human, I don't have any money.
Nog: It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favor of some philosophy of self-enhancement.
Jake: Hey, watch it. There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity.
Nog: What does that mean exactly?
Jake: It means... it means we don't need money!
Nog: Well, if you don't need money, then you certainly don't need mine!

The exchange has always stuck in my brain for a long time and as I see the discussion on here and elsewhere about the how it might be impossible for the Federation could exist without money... what if it's just Humans?

The way I have seen it is that the United Federation of Planets more like the modern European Union, rather than a corollary to the United States of America. Now while the Euro is the primary currency of the EU, there are other currencies at large as well.

Perhaps that's where the rarely mentioned "Federation Credit" comes in. A universal currency, used by some members but not all. We know from the shows that not all things are something a replicator can make. The biggest example being Latinium. But seems Deuterium and Dilithium are in the same boat.

For example: The Bolians obviously (as of Deep Space Nine) have a currency based economy. The Bank of Bolias. When Quark is blacklisted from Ferengi Commerce; Bolians waiters replaced his Ferengi ones.

Also Voyager made references to the Vulcans having some sort of currency.

Then there are references to mining ops, private traders like Sirano Jones, Harry Mudd, Cassidy Yates and... Ugh... Okana.

In fact wasn't the Tribble an attempt to pay for a drink on K-7?

So to bring it all home. What if it's just the United Earth government that has for sure eliminated money. They just absorb the various costs that still exist in order to create what the humans call "Paradise." Other species in the Federation (and Bajor too once it accepts) keep their currency and probably have an exchange rate in both Federation Credits and possibly GPL after Grand Nagus Rom normalizes relations.

What do you all think?

I think a lot about the Federation's economy has been misinterpreted over the decades.

It's obvious in TOS that they use money. There are numerous references to "credits" as units of currency and various people getting paid, not to mention how much Starfleet has invested in Spock (sounds like a considerable amount).

If Cyrano Jones hadn't given Uhura the Tribble, she would either have had to pay 10 credits cash, or used the 23rd century equivalent of her credit/debit card. And yes, he did try to swap a Tribble for a drink. But by that time the market was literally saturated, and Tribbles had become worthless as an item of trade.

Fast-forward to the movie era: Kirk tells Gillian that they don't use money in the 23rd century. I interpret that to mean they don't use cash. Yes, Kirk has some cash on him (his share of the money from the sale of his glasses, none of which was spent on the bus since he didn't have exact change). That doesn't mean that he actually has any idea what it's worth. He didn't offer to pay for the pizza, because he hasn't any idea how 20th-century customs work regarding restaurants (not to mention that since Gillian invited him, Gillian should take care of the bill). Kirk's food comes out of a synthesizer, for the most part, and doesn't cost him anything unless he's dining out at a non-Starfleet establishment. And even then, cash isn't part of the equation - the cost of the meal is just debited from his account and away he goes.

If the Federation doesn't use money, how do they compensate the military personnel in Starfleet?

They must do it somehow. Otherwise, Beverly cheated the trader on Farpoint Station for that bolt of ugly cloth. What a shame that Picard wasn't there to remind her that they don't use money in the 24th century, and she shouldn't be so acquisitive, since the cloth didn't suit her coloring, wasn't practical, and wouldn't help her to become a better doctor.

Or make donations in church?

Hopefully mainstream Federation society would have moved on from supporting churches in that way. After all, with everyone's basic needs taken care of, there should be no need for charities, and how does it "better humanity" to have fancy churches?

That has been my idea for a while now. Humans have gotten rid of money, because their tech produces everything easily.


But this now this bring us back to the usual conclusions;

Sisko is serving his customers for free. Data's housekeeper is working for free too. The guy or lady that removes waste extraction or whatever they call it, is doing it for free.

I'm not disputing that earth doesn't use money, only trying to know how do we explain this part? This is the most baffling part of the no money concept.

My take on this is simply that Starfleet doesn't use money. If you work for Starfleet, all your basic needs are taken care of, and the higher your rank, the more "extras" you're entitled to acquire, if you want them. So an admiral would have fancier living quarters than an ensign, possibly a private estate... but the ensign would certainly never go hungry, be without shelter, medical care, adequate clothing, reasonable opportunities for recreation and leisure travel, and so on.

The problem is that Picard lives in this little Starfleet bubble and he tends to assume the rest of the Federation is like that. It's been demonstrated numerous times in the post-TOS series that lots of people don't live in a money-free world, even on Earth. I refuse to believe that Sisko and Robert Picard are just giving their food and wine away and their employees are working for free. That's ridiculous. They have to be compensated somehow. "Bettering oneself" only goes so far before a person wants more than just a good feeling as compensation for what they do.

Well, it may be that service for society provide the additional access to the resources - more than just basic goods. For example, basic food, housing, transportation are free. But if you want something non-standard - like your own spacecraft, for example - you need to "work its price".

What is the price of a spaceship? Picard tapdanced his way out of explaining that to Lily when she asked.

Just today, watching a poker scene in TNG it makes some sense that they're playing with their own money, otherwise it wouldn't hurt so much to loose or place huge bets.

Kinda odd, I know, but works for me.

Why would they play with their own money? They could have, of course, but why? That would fly in the face of "Starfleet will provide" and "we're all in this to better ourselves" stuff.


My overall take on this is that any society that's more complex than a small band of hunter/gatherers has to have some sort of economy to function. Even if it's just bartering goods or services, that's still an economy.

Look at Voyager. It wasn't too long after they were stranded in the Delta quadrant before an internal ship's economy developed: replicator rations and holodeck time. Energy wasn't unlimited anymore, so it had to be used for essential things first. That made the replicator food and holodeck time more valuable. The result was a new economy.