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Is it the Federation, or Just Earth that Doesn't Use Money

Wouldn't replicators require a great deal of resources?

To make a metal alloy for instance; it needs to draw those elements from somewhere. As I understand it, ships have huge stores and storage tanks for everything that they need to use the replicators for. And they use the warp core to power the enormous energy consumption that replicators use.
 
So Tom's favorite bar - Sandrine's - just gives drinks away, for free?
Yes.

It's not synthehol she's serving
It's not her top shelf stuff either.

Tom is one of the people who fell through the cracks in Picard's oh-so-perfect Earth. I'm not saying it's anyone's fault but Tom's, but the fact exists that there are homeless bums on 24th-century Earth - even ones who are the offspring of Starfleet admirals.
I don't seem to recall Tom ever actually being "homeless" as such. A wandering sloppy drunk maybe, but hardly homeless, and certainly not malnourished.

Kes and Neelix were never married, so what is this "talaxian husband" thing?
An attempt to imply some modicum of dignity to Kes' background. You're right, that's probably a little too generous; they really come off more like a couple of hitchhikers who got lost on their way to Kazon Burning Man.

Troi, Picard, and Sisko are all career Starfleet, and in their ordinary working lives, none of them ever knew any serious lack of the basic necessities of life or wondered where their next meal was coming from.
Irrelevant, since none of them were BORN into Starfleet, and more importantly, aren't actually describing the conditions for Starfleet officers when they make those statements. Troi isn't telling Zephram Cochrane that poverty and disease and war are gone for Starfleet officers, she's describing the state of affairs on Earth in general.

Which is why people like Vash and Tom Paris and even Chakotay don't want to live on Earth. Because Earth is FUCKING BORING, and is probably a living nightmare for the kinds of people who actually need external challenges in their lives in order to feel useful.

In the case of Tom Paris, his life was spiraling down even before he was kicked out of Starfleet
And his unwillingness to move back to Earth and live a peaceful quiet life is why he wound up slumming it with the Maquis. As a more famous officer once said in another life, "You can settle for a less than ordinary life, but you feel like you were meant for something better, something special." Tom never really found out what that "something better" was until he got tapped for the Voyager mission, but it clearly didn't involve sitting on his ass drinking free synthale and lamenting his inability to escape his father's shadow...

Huh... Tom Paris is basically NuKirk with a shittier lawyer.

I don't own any of the DVD, and don't get any channels that currently run Star Trek. If I did have the time to go through what's on Netflix I could likely come up with people on Earth who don't just accept that it's a moneyless paradise.
You won't, though. In fact the very few characters who make any effort at all to describe life on Earth LITERALLY refer to Earth as "paradise."

In fact, in the words of the President of the Federation:
It took centuries for Earth to evolve into the peaceful haven it is today. I would hate to be remembered as the Federation President who destroyed paradise.​
And the very next episode is called "Paradise Lost." It's literally right there in the label.

Oh, wait... Vash. Tom Paris. Kassidy Yates...
... do not live on Earth. In fact, Vash seems hell bent on getting as far away from Earth as she possibly can.

You're comparing apples and jelly beans. TOS was full of references to money and getting paid.
Which tells us the FEDERATION definitely uses money or at least some sort of electronic currency. Earth, evidently, does not.
 
Robert would not allow replicators anywhere in his home or lands.
Which leads me to think that he also wouldn't allow replicated items produced off his property onto his property. So he isn't just going into town and buying replicated stuff and bringing it home.

If true, this implies there's an entire economy on Earth which doesn't involve the replicator.
As is "humanity," which is identified in this exchange as "the people who don't use money."
But how much of Humanity would agree with Jean Luc's and Jake's description of what Humanity does and wants? Lean Luc/Jake could be describing a pocket culture within the greater Humanity multi-cultural civilization.

Humanity of the 24th century could have these pocket cultures by the tens of thousands.
Pity they couldn't afford a working fire extinguisher.
Q killed Robert and Rene as part of his on-going hobby of screwing with Picard. Even with a fire extinguisher, they wouldn't have been able to save their own lives.
they no longer obsess over it as a means of accumulating stuff.
More likely, some Humans do obsess and some don't. And they might be next door neighbors.
So for example, a starfleet officer becomes a starship captain not because it pays well and they want to buy a big house and nice car but because they genuinely want to serve the interests of the Federation, meet new aliens and explore the galaxy.
People can want to serve their nation or community, while still seeking to building a financially successful career. Admirals with thirty years of service earn more than seaman recruits.
 
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I know I am late to the discussion so forgive me if this has already been said, but I think what the writers were trying to say is that while humans still use some form of money to exchange goods and services, they no longer obsess over it as a means of accumulating stuff.
This is basically my take on it, although of course there would still be some people who like to acquire stuff. If there weren't, the Ferengi wouldn't have found it quite so profitable to deal with "hew-mons." And speaking of Ferengi... if Harry Kim didn't have any money, why would Quark have tried to sell him some worthless trinket before Voyager departed to the Badlands? You can't tell me that Quark would have given something away without making some sort of profit. He wanted Harry's money (which would presumably have been drawn from his Federation account, converted to gold-pressed latinum, and deposited in Quark's on-station account).

Wouldn't replicators require a great deal of resources?

To make a metal alloy for instance; it needs to draw those elements from somewhere. As I understand it, ships have huge stores and storage tanks for everything that they need to use the replicators for. And they use the warp core to power the enormous energy consumption that replicators use.
Exactly. Raw materials and energy aren't free. Where's it all coming from?

Yes.


It's not her top shelf stuff either.
Really. A pub owner gives her stuff away for free, including the non-synthetic drinks? Why would she do this - would it make her a more enlightened person?

I don't seem to recall Tom ever actually being "homeless" as such. A wandering sloppy drunk maybe, but hardly homeless, and certainly not malnourished.
So where did he live, then? It wasn't at his parents' home.

An attempt to imply some modicum of dignity to Kes' background. You're right, that's probably a little too generous; they really come off more like a couple of hitchhikers who got lost on their way to Kazon Burning Man.
Why is her background "undignified"? Granted, her relationship with Neelix always struck me as a bit creepy, given the relative differences in their ages. She seemed like a teenager at first, but gained a couple of decades (relatively speaking, as measured in human terms) by the time she left the ship. People living together is considered normal now in many parts of the world, so why would anyone on Voyager care if they weren't married?

Irrelevant, since none of them were BORN into Starfleet, and more importantly, aren't actually describing the conditions for Starfleet officers when they make those statements. Troi isn't telling Zephram Cochrane that poverty and disease and war are gone for Starfleet officers, she's describing the state of affairs on Earth in general.
Troi's father was Starfleet, wasn't he? The problem with all the pompous speeches these characters make, they're still talking about the parts of Earth they know about, which is basically Starfleet (and Picard's brother's winery).

Consider Jake's "I don't use money because I'm human" speech... if you're going to make the point that they don't use money on Earth, Jake's speech makes no sense whatsoever, unless he's claiming that humans live only on Earth or on starships/starbases. He's just got this cultural-blinders thing going on, like Picard, assuming that his little pocket of existence being one way means it's that way for everyone.

Any why doesn't anyone ever give me a satisfactory answer to this question: If humans don't use money, how did Beverly buy that cloth on Farpoint Station? She specifically said to charge it to her account on the Enterprise. So Beverly - who is human and from Earth - either uses money, or she committed fraud.

Huh... Tom Paris is basically NuKirk with a shittier lawyer.
Tom Paris grew up. NuKirk will never be anything other than Captain Frat Boy.


Which tells us the FEDERATION definitely uses money or at least some sort of electronic currency. Earth, evidently, does not.
Which is a whopping huge contradiction, since isn't the Federation Council located somewhere in Europe?

Which leads me to think that he also wouldn't allow replicated items produced off his property onto his property. So he isn't just going into town and buying replicated stuff and bringing it home.

If true, this implies there's an entire economy on Earth which doesn't involve the replicator.
This is true in RL, although you'd have to substitute electronic/online banking in place of replicators.

I know people who never carry cash for anything, since they prefer using credit and debit cards. Then there is the opposite end of the spectrum - people who absolutely don't trust electronic/online banking. My grandmother refused to activate her own debit card until the bank changed its procedures to the point where it was basically impossible to do anything without an active card. Even if people never use it for transactions, they still have to have the card and PIN to access their account to make deposits and withdrawals. With me, it's a practical mix of all three, plus the barter system, depending on the situation.

How this would work on Earth as depicted in TNG, I'm not sure. Does Robert Picard pay for his supplies and groceries (the stuff he can grow himself) with bottles of wine? Unlikely, so there must be some other method of exchange.

But how much of Humanity would agree with Jean Luc's and Jake's description of what Humanity does and wants? Lean Luc/Jake could be describing a pocket culture within the greater Humanity multi-cultural civilization.
Starfleet, especially the portions of Starfleet that are based on Earth (and presumably the lunar colonies, Mars, and on Jupiter Station). Just ask the replicator for what you want, and POOF! there it is.
 
It'd be fun to get a peek into the lives of average 24th century suburbanites on earth.

Or it would be really boring.

"Desperate, but socially evolved Housewives"
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Be advised: By the time I am now posting this, several more comments hhave come, and it may no longer be relevant.
 
Which is a whopping huge contradiction, since isn't the Federation Council located somewhere in Europe?

So? The United Nations building is in New York City and the UN doesn't follow New York state laws across the entire planet, nor use American dollars for everything.

Also Earth's power grid is supposedly astounding as long as super advanced alien probes don't mess with the planetary atmosphere and oceans.
 
It'd be fun to get a peek into the lives of average 24th century suburbanites on earth.

Or it would be really boring.

"Desperate, but socially evolved Housewives"
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:guffaw:
 
So where did he live, then? It wasn't at his parents' home.

Maybe in a place like this. Perhaps that's the standard form of accommodation in the Federation for people who don't (and won't) work.

I know people who never carry cash for anything, since they prefer using credit and debit cards.

Darn right. I'm one of those people. :)

(I don't use debit cards, though. They are unsafe and insecure. Credit cards only, for me.)
 
Really. A pub owner gives her stuff away for free, including the non-synthetic drinks? Why would she do this
Probably the same reason I forgot to bill everyone who showed up at our Fourth of July barbecue this year. Something like twenty to thirty people showed up and ate the food that I paid for and cooked for them, used my tables and my flatware, and then made me clean up after them when the party was over.

would it make her a more enlightened person?
No, but it would make her customers both a lot happier and a lot less sober, which is apparently the whole idea.

Why is her background "undignified"?
For one thing... well, she's two. Which means the first time we meet her on Voyager, she hasn't actually known Neelix all that long (maybe a few months at most) and her getting captured and tortured by the Kazon is about the only thing that's ever happened to her. In the context of the Ocampa, she's not a visionary or a rebel or a "Free thinker" at all, she's an angsty teenager (if that) who ran off with some guy she barely knew just because she was bored.

Vash probably would have liked her.

People living together is considered normal now in many parts of the world, so why would anyone on Voyager care if they weren't married?
Because she's a two year old dating a guy who was literally eating out of the garbage a week ago.

Here's a question for the cheap seats: what do you suppose would have happened to Kes if Neelix hadn't tricked Janeway into rescuing her? That's a situation that doesn't end in any way other than some bloody rags and a shallow grave, and Neelix doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would really lose much sleep over it.

Troi's father was Starfleet, wasn't he?
Of course. But she was RAISED by her mother, who doesn't live on Earth and sure as hell doesn't buy into Picard's homilies about Earth being paradise. And yet Troi knows all of the same memes as everyone else.

Consider Jake's "I don't use money because I'm human" speech... if you're going to make the point that they don't use money on Earth, Jake's speech makes no sense whatsoever, unless he's claiming that humans live only on Earth or on starships/starbases.
Yup. That's your Star Trek monoculture in action. It makes as much sense as Gowron telling Worf that "true Klingons" thrill at the approach of battle, or Brunt telling Quark that philanthropy is antithetical to everything the Ferengi hold dear. It's like that time my uncle accused me of being stuck up because I "talk like white people." All of these are examples of people within a culture buying wholeheartedly into their own stereotypes.

In this case, though, it isn't a stereotype that applies to Starfleet officers, it's a stereotype that applies to HUMANS. And we know multiple people who don't fit the trope, and even a few on or around Earth who really ARE driven by the acquisition of wealth (and probably hate living on Earth for this very reason). All stereotypes have some basis in fact, and this one probably does too.

Any why doesn't anyone ever give me a satisfactory answer to this question: If humans don't use money, how did Beverly buy that cloth on Farpoint Station?
Because the FEDERATION uses money, regardless of whether or not humans (individually or collectively) choose to do so. This should be obvious: the Bandi aren't Federation members and they sure as hell aren't Earth citizens, so any sort of trade between the Federation and the Bandi comes with the expectation that the Federation will compensate them -- somehow -- for the purchase. This is probably true of Earth as well as far as interstellar commerce too.

Tom Paris grew up.
lol when exactly did he do that? Between Captain Proton episodes?

Which is a whopping huge contradiction, since isn't the Federation Council located somewhere in Europe?
San Francisco, or so they implied in TVH.

What's the contradiction, exactly? The fact that nobody uses money and all basic necessities are free to all is probably WHY the Council meets on Earth. No need to exchange currencies, everything is gratis.

Starfleet, especially the portions of Starfleet that are based on Earth (and presumably the lunar colonies, Mars, and on Jupiter Station). Just ask the replicator for what you want, and POOF! there it is.
Again, just about EVERYONE has access to replicators, starfleet or not. This is even true for DS9, and Bajor is FAR from paradise.
 
One wonders with the currency-less Earth was influenced by one or more of the other Federation member planets who have had a currency-less economy with replicators and a post scarcity power grid to back it up style planet for centuries or even millennia. If influenced by this than the 24th century Earth culture we see shouldn't be all that surprising. With a bit of a transitionary period during the late 23rd century.
 
Actually, i think it's a deliberate choice made by some of the better-developed future worlds in the Trekiverse. That's why I keep referring to Earth as having a "single payer economy." That is to say, all your income goes into a giant resource pool with the assumption that the pool is shared by all and you can use it to pay for any (approved) product that you could ever need. If you want something that ISN'T covered by the Income Pool, you have to use your own private money for that.

This is analogous to the way most developed countries have some sort of universal/single payer healthcare system rather than leaving patients at the mercy of insurance companies or out-of-pocket medical expenses. More broadly: many of the services we don't have to pay for (police, fire departments, national guards, health inspectors, public schools, etc) are already paid for that way. The only missing element is that such a system would be comprehensive enough that even the providers of those services don't need to be directly compensated since THEY get to draw from the Income Pool just like everyone else does.

The ideological component is there for a reason: "We work for the betterment of humanity" might not just be a slogan, it could easily be the underlying notion of how their economy works. Because if you DON'T work for the betterment of humanity -- e.g. you only work for yourself -- then the pool shrinks, there are fewer resources for everyone, and that causes problems.

it's like the way resources are allocated in a giant family. Somebody went and bought milk, but you don't worry about who it was or paying them back because the milk is for everyone. And nobody asks if you are the one who bought the cornflakes or offers to compensate you for them, because you bought them for everybody and everybody benefits from there being cornflakes in the house. Someone buys milk, someone buys cornflakes, everyone has breakfast, and everyone is happy.
 
Actually, i think it's a deliberate choice made by some of the better-developed future worlds in the Trekiverse. That's why I keep referring to Earth as having a "single payer economy." That is to say, all your income goes into a giant resource pool with the assumption that the pool is shared by all and you can use it to pay for any (approved) product that you could ever need. If you want something that ISN'T covered by the Income Pool, you have to use your own private money for that.

This is analogous to the way most developed countries have some sort of universal/single payer healthcare system rather than leaving patients at the mercy of insurance companies or out-of-pocket medical expenses. More broadly: many of the services we don't have to pay for (police, fire departments, national guards, health inspectors, public schools, etc) are already paid for that way. The only missing element is that such a system would be comprehensive enough that even the providers of those services don't need to be directly compensated since THEY get to draw from the Income Pool just like everyone else does.

The ideological component is there for a reason: "We work for the betterment of humanity" might not just be a slogan, it could easily be the underlying notion of how their economy works. Because if you DON'T work for the betterment of humanity -- e.g. you only work for yourself -- then the pool shrinks, there are fewer resources for everyone, and that causes problems.

it's like the way resources are allocated in a giant family. Somebody went and bought milk, but you don't worry about who it was or paying them back because the milk is for everyone. And nobody asks if you are the one who bought the cornflakes or offers to compensate you for them, because you bought them for everybody and everybody benefits from there being cornflakes in the house. Someone buys milk, someone buys cornflakes, everyone has breakfast, and everyone is happy.

Communism then?
 
I wonder if enough the Federation gets to be like Earth that they will look at some of the currency driven worlds like they are backwards old fashion nut jobs like some contries view the United States today for not being as socialist as the as much of the rest of the planet. The Ferengi are just like a huge cultural enemy to such a Federation (which was their original purpose, except that they came off as too silly and it wasn't until Deep Space Nine and Quark that they started to get better stories.) I mean the whole idea of wealth in physical form means almost nothing is you can make just about anything from just solar energy via a replicator. And that does seem to be at least partly what powers Earth's grid...solar energy.
 
Probably the same reason I forgot to bill everyone who showed up at our Fourth of July barbecue this year. Something like twenty to thirty people showed up and ate the food that I paid for and cooked for them, used my tables and my flatware, and then made me clean up after them when the party was over.
Sorry, I didn't realize that your day job that you do 8 hours/day, 5 days/week, however many weeks/year (not sure how many weeks vacation time you get) was providing Fourth of July barbecues for 20-30 people.

Sandrines' is a BUSINESS. Presumably it's open every day, probably for at least 10-12 hours at a stretch. Why would you expect anyone to do all that for absolutely no compensation? She's running a business, not a soup kitchen.

No, but it would make her customers both a lot happier and a lot less sober, which is apparently the whole idea.
How is drunkenness of benefit to humanity?


For one thing... well, she's two. Which means the first time we meet her on Voyager, she hasn't actually known Neelix all that long (maybe a few months at most) and her getting captured and tortured by the Kazon is about the only thing that's ever happened to her. In the context of the Ocampa, she's not a visionary or a rebel or a "Free thinker" at all, she's an angsty teenager (if that) who ran off with some guy she barely knew just because she was bored.
Oh, okay. You've just basically described Kes as a bored, brainless teenage floozy who would probably be turning tricks on a street corner, assuming her planet had street corners.

Yeah, that totally squares with the Kes we saw on TV. Yep, what was I thinking? :rolleyes:

I never liked Kes, but not for the reasons you're carrying on about.

Vash probably would have liked her.
Why?

Because she's a two year old dating a guy who was literally eating out of the garbage a week ago.

Here's a question for the cheap seats: what do you suppose would have happened to Kes if Neelix hadn't tricked Janeway into rescuing her? That's a situation that doesn't end in any way other than some bloody rags and a shallow grave, and Neelix doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would really lose much sleep over it.
So... Kes is a teenage hooker and Neelix is an animal scavenging in a dumpster.

O-kay... :rolleyes:


Of course. But she was RAISED by her mother, who doesn't live on Earth and sure as hell doesn't buy into Picard's homilies about Earth being paradise. And yet Troi knows all of the same memes as everyone else.
You don't think Deanna would have picked up on the Starfleet party line over the years, particularly after she went to the Academy?


In this case, though, it isn't a stereotype that applies to Starfleet officers, it's a stereotype that applies to HUMANS. And we know multiple people who don't fit the trope, and even a few on or around Earth who really ARE driven by the acquisition of wealth (and probably hate living on Earth for this very reason). All stereotypes have some basis in fact, and this one probably does too.
You've been saying that it's not humans in general who don't use money, it's just humans on Earth. And somehow Jake seems to think that no humans use money. So he must be very confused about things, because humans live on many different places than just Earth/Mars/Moon/Jupiter and assorted human-centric starships and starbases. He should have said he didn't use money because he was from Earth, not because he's human.


Because the FEDERATION uses money, regardless of whether or not humans (individually or collectively) choose to do so. This should be obvious: the Bandi aren't Federation members and they sure as hell aren't Earth citizens, so any sort of trade between the Federation and the Bandi comes with the expectation that the Federation will compensate them -- somehow -- for the purchase. This is probably true of Earth as well as far as interstellar commerce too.
Why should the Bandi expect compensation when humans don't use money? Beverly should have been arrested and charged with fraud/theft.

lol when exactly did he do that? Between Captain Proton episodes?
It could have been when he got married, realized he was going to be a father, started taking his medical duties more seriously, showed more responsibility... there's no reason why he couldn't grow as a person but still goof around with his favorite holoprogram. Not everyone in the 24th century has to have Shakespeare and chamber music as their hobbies*.

* I'm not saying there's anything wrong with these; I love Shakespeare plays and worked backstage on a production of A Midsummer Night's Dream; I'm just saying that most real-world people consider these to be really stuffy and boring activities so it's refreshing to see someone on a Star Trek show who is unapologetic about having fun.

Again, just about EVERYONE has access to replicators, starfleet or not. This is even true for DS9, and Bajor is FAR from paradise.
Except it was openly stated that some people did not have access to replicators and some actively refused to have anything to do with them. So how did they get the goods and supplies they would need to live their lives?
 
Why should the Bandi expect compensation when humans don't use money? Beverly should have been arrested and charged with fraud/theft.


Probably not since the Bandi were already conducting a fraud and holding a hostage in their efforts to impress Starfleet into making their planet relevant as the main frontier outpost with Farpoint Station.
 
This is basically my take on it, although of course there would still be some people who like to acquire stuff. If there weren't, the Ferengi wouldn't have found it quite so profitable to deal with "hew-mons." And speaking of Ferengi... if Harry Kim didn't have any money, why would Quark have tried to sell him some worthless trinket before Voyager departed to the Badlands? You can't tell me that Quark would have given something away without making some sort of profit. He wanted Harry's money (which would presumably have been drawn from his Federation account, converted to gold-pressed latinum, and deposited in Quark's on-station account).

Absolutely. There are definitely situations where Fed citizens would still use money. Buying stuff from aliens, like Quark, that are not easily available in the Federation would be one example. I would also add that replicators probably made money less essential since replicators could provide for many basic needs and wants. So whereas today, we absolutely need money just to meet our basic needs like food and housing, in the Federation, those basic needs would be met so money would only be needed for the extra stuff. So, replicators most likely caused a shift in thinking where people stopped worrying so much about having money because they no longer needed it for their every day needs. The DS9 scene with Nog and Jake illustrates this, I think. Jake got so used to not needing money for his every day needs that he was at a loss when he suddenly needed it to buy the baseball card.
 
]
Just ask the replicator for what you want, and POOF! there it is.
Providing you have a replicator, and can afford to operate it.
and Neelix doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would really lose much sleep over it.
Quite the opposite, Neelix was commonly shown as a caring person of deep feeling.
Communism then?
A relatively small number of wealthy party politburo people running things while the masses starve.
Beverly should have been arrested and charged with fraud/theft.
And the arrest should have been made by Starfleet, if Bev was cheating the locals. But if Bev had money, then no problem.
I would also add that replicators probably made money less essential since replicators could provide for many basic needs and wants.
That presupposes that the replicator can be operated with no cost to the user.

It cost you money today just to take a hot shower.
 
^Not even water is free and that falls from the sky, no one makes it. You are charged for instant access straight to your home.
And in universe replicated food seems to taste as good as the prepackaged stuff that sells today, so no danger of the farming industry going belly up.
 
Communism then?
Communism implies democratic control (usually in the form of state ownership) of the means of production. We've seen no evidence at all that the Earth government actually regulates production at all. The existence of replicator technology and other advanced manufacturing processes probably renders that kind of distinction irrelevant; if the government is maintaining all the replicators and providing basic goods and services to everyone for free, then it probably doesn't CARE what everyone else does in their free time. Communism implies mandatory participation in the commune, whereas on Earth it seems to be completely voluntary.

This is probably because the replicator system also doubles as a recycling system, so technically you're paying back into the system every time you take a shit or throw something in the trash. Bulk resource collection is probably automated too, so farming is more a matter of sitting on your ass and supervising the machinery while sipping long island iced tea.
 
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