Insurrection-Should Have Been A Dominion War Movie

[BillJ]

We're the ones watching these movies, aren't we? Since when did "general audiences" watch Star Trek? (Not including NuTrek)

Let's be honest here, even in 1998, there simply weren't enough Trekkies to keep a feature film franchise afloat. You have to make something that is going to draw general audiences in order for the film to financially viable. Unless your willing to go the Serenity route where you get thirty million to make your film as opposed to ninety million and lose some of the cast members in order to come in under budget...

Hell, First Contact was a smashing success because at its heart it was a zombie flick.

 

[GemHaters]

We're the ones watching these movies, aren't we? Since when did "general audiences" watch Star Trek? (Not including NuTrek)

Let's be honest here, even in 1998, there simply weren't enough Trekkies to keep a feature film franchise afloat.

I couldn't disagree more. Being a Trekkie isn't some fad that was created ten years ago.

 

[BillJ]

I couldn't disagree more. Being a Trekkie isn't some fad that was created ten years ago.

I've been a fan since 1975, so I know it wasn't a fad created ten years ago. But the reality of movie making is to make a film that will sell the most tickets possible. Which is why the film we got in 2009 emphasized action over intimate knowledge of the Star Trek universe.

 

[GemHaters]

I couldn't disagree more. Being a Trekkie isn't some fad that was created ten years ago.

I've been a fan since 1975, so I know it wasn't a fad created ten years ago. But the reality of movie making is to make a film that will sell the most tickets possible. Which is why the film we got in 2009 emphasized action over intimate knowledge of the Star Trek universe.

Come on, NuTrek wasn't made for Trekkies. They made that movie to gain new fans, not for those of us that already existed. That movie was made for people that watch movies just because some hot actor/actress appears in it. It was a disgrace to the Star Trek world.

The reality of movie making is to make a film that will sell the most tickets possible? So, how do you explain Twilight?

 

[BillJ]

Come on, NuTrek wasn't made for Trekkies. They made that movie to gain new fans, not for those of us that already existed. That movie was made for people that watch movies just because some hot actor/actress appears in it. It was a disgrace to the Star Trek world.

I went opening night with my wife here in Northern Kentucky and then again the next day with my son. There were many, many Trekkies in attendance in full getup.

The reality of movie making is to make a film that will sell the most tickets possible? So, how do you explain Twilight?

Huh? Our movie theater is on the third floor of a three story mall and when my wife and I went for the midnight showing on opening night the line started at the theater doors on the third floor and went out the doors on the first floor.

Twilight made 392 million worldwide and seventy million on opening weekend on a production budget of 37 million. It made ten times what it cost to produce, any Hollywood executive would be drooling at the thought of that type of profitability. While Insurrection made 112.5 million on a budget of 58 million or almost 2:1 on profit vs. cost.

 

[ALF]

Hey, we got First Contact. Let's never forget that.
TNG's Undiscovered Country.

Here, watch the TNG films in this order, you'll sleep sounder as a TNG fan:

Generations
Insurrection
Nemesis
First Contact (imagine B4 becomes Data again, okay? It worked in the Countdown novels)

what's with the order? Is that ranking it from worst to best for you?

The order of production release, with First Contact at the end for the series of TNG in general to end on a high note.

Because The Undiscovered Country was (IMHO) such an awesome way that TOS was able to wrap things up. It's such a well crafted story and I feel an adequate emotional conclusion for the crew. Which (again IMHO) was absent from Nemesis. Killing off Data was a cheap stunt to bring an emotional conclusion to the series; it didn't work in the same way the final episode of Enterprise didn't.

So much wasted potential. Insurrection could have been incredible. Instead we got Gorches, the Boring Ba'ku and firm boob jokes. Even a cave in (we hadn't enough of them in all the series'). Sorry, I don't mean to sound so negative, just reflecting on Insurrection so much makes me realize what a creative mess it was; a proper producer would have kicked a few cooks out of the kitchen in the hopes of saving the narrative.

What was it trying to say? Did the So'na and Ba'ku represent anything? Oppression in general perhaps? What's the moral of the story? Something about relocating people from their land. Sure. What's the take home point? "Try and have a little fun, every day?"
(Michael Piller + Rick Berman) + (Patrick Stewart + Brent Spiner) = Horse Shit

 

[T'Girl]

The reality of movie making is to make a film that will sell the most tickets possible? So, how do you explain Twilight?

Twilight made 392 million worldwide and seventy million on opening weekend on a production budget of 37 million. .

The Twilight Saga: Breaking Dawn Part 1, earned $283.5 million world-wide in its opening weekend (November 18, 2011). As of January 2012, it has earned over $700 million worldwide. It cost $110 million to make.

The Twilight novels have sold over 100 million copies.

Part of the movies success is the fact that it's fans are seeing each segment multiple times in the theaters. The movies were made for the fans first, and the general viewing audience second.

Star Trek Eleven on the other hand was made for the general viewing audience first and the fans second. It cost $150 million, made about $112 million it's opening weekend and has grossed worldwide about $386 million. Compare Twilight and ST Eleven.

A lesson perhaps?

The story is set around where I live. The fall after I graduated High School, about fifty of us made a "pilgrimage" to the small town of Forks. That Bella and Edward spend their honeymoon in my beautiful Brazil is icing on the cake.

")

 

[BillJ]

Sorry, I don't mean to sound so negative, just reflecting on Insurrection so much makes me realize what a creative mess it was; a proper producer would have kicked a few cooks out of the kitchen in the hopes of saving the narrative.

I think the big problem was the film had a release date before the first page was ever written...

It was not only scheduled for production before the script was written; it was scheduled for release before the script was written. December, 1998. So, from the moment I was hired, I heard the clock ticking.

The Twilight novels have sold over 100 million copies.

Part of the movies success is the fact that it's fans are seeing each segment multiple times in the theaters. The movies were made for the fans first, and the general viewing audience second.

Star Trek Eleven on the other hand was made for the general viewing audience first and the fans second. It cost $150 million, made about $112 million it's opening weekend and has grossed worldwide about $386 million. Compare Twilight and ST Eleven.

A lesson perhaps?

I don't think so. The people going to see the Twilight films knew exactly what they were going to see. The fan base is much more unified in expectations walking into one of those films. Trek fandom is much more "balkanized". Just because one identifies themselves as a fan doesn't mean they're a fan of all of it. There are four Twilight books but over five hundred Star Trek books and I don't think they've sold one hundred-million copies combined.

At the height of its' popularity, TNG was drawing close to twenty million viewers a week. Were all of those actually Star Trek fans? People you could guarantee would buy a ticket to a feature film?

In 1994, Star Trek: Generations sold approximately 18 million tickets domestically (76 million gross at an average of $4.08 a ticket) and it had the draw of having the huge meeting of Kirk and Picard.

In 1996, Star Trek: First Contact sold approximately 21 million tickets domestically (92 million gross at an average of $4.42 a ticket) and it was promoted as a zombie movie in many markets.

So there seemed to be an upper-limit to how many tickets a Berman-led Trek movie could sell regardless of content.

The point being that the fanbase isn't nearly large enough to support a big-budget feature film on its own.

 

[sonak]

I find it interesting that they went to such an opposite approach for INS right after FC. I mean, I know that was part of the idea: "we're not going to top the Borg in a TNG movie," but there's a difference in realizing that and making a sharp turn in the opposite direction. INS and FC are as different as night and day, and not just in the sense that one is great and one is crap.

 

[F. King Daniel]

[
Come on, NuTrek wasn't made for Trekkies. They made that movie to gain new fans, not for those of us that already existed. That movie was made for people that watch movies just because some hot actor/actress appears in it. It was a disgrace to the Star Trek world.

As a fan that "already existed", I found nuTrek a loving tribute to the Star Trek world, packed with more trivia and Trek references than the previous ten movies combined. It was made for fans AND casual moviegoers.

 

[thumbtack]

Insurrection should not have been made.

 

[Johnny_Fizzbin]

Whatever you think of Insurrection, it was more fun than we had gotten for our Star Trek regulars in quite some time. It stood out better than Nemesis IMHO, and offered a light story that followed the dark seriousness of First Contact. This was in keeping with TNG when it was on TV. They usually did not follow one dark story up with another or out three light-hearted episodes together back to back. Thus it was for the movie run. That said, I do not think Insurrection should have been a Dominion War movie that would quite frankly mirror what they were doing on Ds9.

This. I agree 150%.

 

[RoJoHen]

Insurrection's biggest problem was that nobody gives a shit about these two random races. I've always thought it was huge missed opportunity to bring back the Unification storyline from the TNG series. Replace the Son'a and Ba'Ku with Romulans and Vulcans and have them start to explore their common heritage. It could actually have led into Nemesis and focused on the Federation's newly-formed peace with the Romulan empire.

TOS had the Klingons. I think TNG should have done a better job tackling the Romulans.

 

[Kelthaz]

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. As bad as TMP, TFF, and Nemesis were at least you cared about what happened in those films. In Insurrection the conflict was over whether or not a group of 300 people we hate were going to move. I was on the edge of my seat the entire time wondering if their new home would allow pets. District 9 did it better.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. As bad as TMP, TFF, and Nemesis were at least you cared about what happened in those films. In Insurrection the conflict was over whether or not a group of 300 people we hate were going to move. I was on the edge of my seat the entire time wondering if their new home would allow pets. District 9 did it better.

Good argument.