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Spoilers Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny grade and discussion

How do you rate Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny?


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Very interesting discussion at the Overthinking It podcast about the movie, they were really positive on it, and near the end, they propose one of their so-crazy-it-has-to-be-right analyses:

By traveling back in time to the battle of Syracuse, Indiana and company were intimately involved in the (impending) death of Archimedes, but who was the second historical figure whose death they influenced? You'll remember at the beginning of the film, the Nazis have supposedly recovered the Spear of Destiny, but Indiana and Voller can both recognize instantly that it's made of a contemporary alloy, so it's not just a forgery, it's a blatantly obvious forgery. But at the end of the movie, they left behind an entire wrecked Nazi plane, full of Nazi equipment, made out of 20th century materials, all in the hands of a Roman Legion. What if they salvaged metal from the crash site, and two hundred years later, some of it has been made into a spearhead for a certain Centurion's lance?

Maybe the Lance of Longinus was authentic, after all.

While I usually like ridiculous, convoluted fan theories like that, this one is just kinda dumb and I found that entire podcast to be a complete snore. They never even approached having a real point about....anything.

And, IIRC, there's also a reference to the inscriptions on the spear that earmark it as a fake, too.
 
This film definitely reeks of the same fingerprints that Kennedy left all over Star Wars:

Having the main character we left years ago turn out to be a pathetic loser who's got nothing to live for, until he encounters a spunky young woman who's better than him at everything, wins every argument and generally outclasses him. I mean jeez, I wasn't expecting to see Luke Skywalker flipping around, nor do I want to see an 80 year old Harrison Ford pretend to be in his prime, but did they have to make him a divorced loser who's shuffling around a dirty apartment just waiting to die? It's like they learned nothing from Star Wars.

So you didn't watch the movie then, because Helena wasn't any of that. She was really more of a villain than anything.

As for that other stuff, it's called character drama and arcs. Rather than have an invincible old man whose just as tough as he always was.
 
This film definitely reeks of the same fingerprints that Kennedy left all over Star Wars:

Having the main character we left years ago turn out to be a pathetic loser who's got nothing to live for, until he encounters a spunky young woman who's better than him at everything, wins every argument and generally outclasses him. I mean jeez, I wasn't expecting to see Luke Skywalker flipping around, nor do I want to see an 80 year old Harrison Ford pretend to be in his prime, but did they have to make him a divorced loser who's shuffling around a dirty apartment just waiting to die? It's like they learned nothing from Star Wars.
Yawn.
 
While there might be some superficial similarities between Han Solo of "The Force Awakens" and Indiana Jones in "Dial of Destiny," I think the latter works so, so much better than the former for a number of reasons.

Han going back to being a penny-ante smuggler in TFA just feels like a massive step backward for the character and smacks of the deep levels of unoriginality that plague the first episode in the sequel trilogy. Not only are Han and Leia basically exactly where they were in the original Star Wars, so is the galaxy. So Han being a smuggler again is just one more example of how derivative the entire enterprise feels.

More than that, it's just deeply sad and regressive for the character. Decades after being a war hero, and moving beyond his fringe origins, Han literally has nothing better to do with his life than farting around in a junky old ship running cargo like he did in his thirties? He says he went back to the "only thing he was ever good at," but Han was never actually good at being a smuggler. In the original trilogy, he has a bounty on his head from his powerful boss precisely because he's bad at his job. In TFA, he's even worse off, since he's wanted by even more criminal factions and has an even crummier reputation. The whole thing is sad and pitiful and not in a way that makes us particularly empathetic to his plight.

In "Dial of Destiny", Indy is still a college professor and, though his university may have been downgraded and though his students are utterly checked out, he still is at least doing a professional job competently and he does at least come to life with and possesses a spark of interest when giving a lecture about a subject he's passionate about. He may not be the popular hot professor anymore, but at least he's trying. At least a little.

Indy also has a much better reason to be down in the dumps than Han. His son is actually dead and it's at least partly due to a rift that had formed between them. And it resulted in the shattering of his marriage. All are terrible emotional burdens that are weighing on him heavily.

Sure, Han's son has turned into a murderous wanna-be tyrant, but Han seems kinda resigned to it up until the ending. Did Han ever make any other attempts to find or reach Kylo? It's unclear.

In fairness to TFA, I do think Han's confrontation with Kylo and subsequent death is one of the best moments in the film, but prior to that, it's all a bit muddy and hard for us to really key into emotionally.

The movie is plagued with wishy-washy, vague writing which certainly does its characters no favors and DoD benefits from much more clean lines and focused storytelling. DoD is just much more emotionally engaging and ultimately satisfying, despite bearing a few surface-level similarities to TFA.
 
The whole thing is sad and pitiful and not in a way that makes us particularly empathetic to his plight.
I have to disagree on this point. It resonated with me so hard, partially because I enjoy studying older literature, and partially because I am someone who loves Erikson's work on the development of a human over the lifespan. Han moves in to the "integrity vs. despair" stage and struggles with that despair piece because he feels like he failed personally. It resonates for me on a powerful level because that's the creeping doubt in the back of my mind as I age that stuff I did doesn't matter. And when I feel that way I go back to unhelpful, or unhealthy or such patterns. Doesn't matter if I was or was not "good at it." It feels good. And that's all that matters.

TL: DR-I'm far more empathic with Han in TFA than I ever way with Indy.
 
I know this really isn't about Indy 5, but the movie inspired me to go back and watch the Young Indy Chronicles.. Damn.. The production values of that show were incredible. I had also forgotten that a very young Elizabeth Hurley played his love interest for a while. I loved the show when it had its all-too-brief run, but now I'm really coming to appreciate how cinematic they wanted it to be.

I started a rewatch a few weeks back and I'm loving it. The production is amazing. Currently on episode 14, the second Picasso ep, where Indy is undercover and gets cast as a eunuch in a play. The pelvic thrust dance had me pissing myself :lol:

One of these days, I'll finally watch that show...

A little easier now that it's finally on Disney+.

chop chop!
 
I started a rewatch a few weeks back and I'm loving it. The production is amazing. Currently on episode 14, the second Picasso ep, where Indy is undercover and gets cast as a eunuch in a play. The pelvic thrust dance had me pissing myself :lol:



chop chop!

Some of the episodes, like that one, bordered on the absurd and weren’t my faves, but all in all, I’m really glad I watched them again.
 
I meant to see this in the cinema but it came out just before we went on holiday; then when we were on holiday we saw Mission Impossible: DR rather than it. After getting home, various real life things got in the way and it left the screens before I could get to it.

Streamed it last night. I enjoyed it but in a liking rather than loving it way. I was certainly never bored, like I became halfway through KOTCS.

I’ve read that they moved Indy to a lower-rated college in New York just so that they could have the action sequence in the city (he couldn’t just have been giving a guest lecture?). I do agree to some degree with the criticism that having an embittered old Indy, separated from his wife and estranged from his son was a bit too close to how we found Han in TFA. And while I haven’t seen any Transformers films since the first one, am I right in thinking that
Shia LeBeouf’s character was also killed offscreen in that series too
? I also agree that it would’ve been preferable just to have Mutt MIA in Vietnam rather than killed, just because the actor happens to be a bellend.

Still, the movie felt more like an IJ movie than Skull did, rollicking along with some fun action sequences, Mads giving good villain as usual, PWB doing well in her sidekick/antagonist role and a kid sidekick who I didn’t find annoying at all. And, of course, Ford having fun and giving it his all.

So glad they didn’t go down the route of Indy staying in the past, but there’s some merit in the argument that he was all a bit passive in the last 20 minutes or so. Still, it was great to see Marian at the end, with the nod to the scene on the boat in Raiders, even if I hoped that some sort of time travel shenanigans would’ve resurrected Mutt.

My ranking of the films in order of preference is Raiders (the only one in the series I would regard as a really great film), Temple of Doom, (I probably like it better than most people do as it was the first Indy film I saw in the cinema; incidentally I found it surprising that it was so explicitly referenced in this movie), Crusade (which I like but it’s too played for laughs and too much a retreat of Raiders), then this one and finally KOTOCS.
 
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It's nice to see someone else but Doom above Crusade. I can't quite put into words why but I've never warmed to Crusade, though I probably like it more than I did. Partly I think it lost me with the prologue. I can accept that the Grail cup is real, but every aspect of Indy's personality coming out of a single teenage adventure? Nah.
 
So, there's definitely stuff to like in Dial of Destiny. Ford still looks good in the outfit, and still has a great growl. Pheobe Waller-Bridge is a dynamic screen presence, and could make a fine archeological heroine in a movie of her own. James Mangold is a skilled director, and with a huge production budget, the movie looks great.

But.

I've said it again and again: the person behind the camera is less important than the quality of the script being shot, and this just isn't a good script. Indy has apparently spent the last 25 years believing his half of the Archimedes dial is of no particular danger or importance, as he keeps it in university storage, not a bank vault, and freely hands it over to a goddaughter who openly tells him she's trying to reunite it with its other half. But, as soon as the baddies capture it, he does a 180-turn, and insists he and Helena have to work together to stop them from completing the same mission, despite having no reason to have changed his own beliefs about the artifact. (Also, this insistence that he and Helena cooperate marks the end of the first act... roughly halfway through the runtime. There's your first clue another draft was needed.)

The idea of a Nazi going back in time to fix the Reich's mistakes is an inspired plot device, but Indy doesn't fully learn about the plan until the start of the third act, which is much too late to establish dramatic stakes. Moreover, the time travel mechanism has to be better established then "a few people take a glance at half of an ancient dial, and are immediately convinced, despite no evidence whatsover, that it's a workable device for such a feat." On the one hand, I appreciate that the Archimedes dial is scientific in nature, but on the other hand, there really needed to be either some supernatural basis for the idea of being able to locate/predict fissures in time, even if those fissures occur naturally, or a practical demonstration of the dial's utility/accuracy. (Also, never mind continental drift, which is negligible over a 2,000-year period, these apparently completely natural fissures entirely compensate for planetary/galactic orbits, I guess? Very thoughtful of them!)

Speaking of which, if Voller is so hell-bent on retrieving the dial, why has he not looked up Indy before now? Despite his government contacts, did he have no idea that the guy he already fought is alive and well, and teaching archaeological history in NYC? Is it just massively convenient that he learned about Indy's existence when he happened to be staying in the immediate vicinity? He must have known about Helena because his goons were following her, right? That's why they arrived at the college? Did he never learn who her godfather was? Just how shoddy was his team's intel??

So much for the plot, now for the characters. It's wildly out of character for Mutt to have enlisted to fight in Vietnam; it would have been much more effective had he died while on an expedition with Indy. Killing him off via backstory is a fine choice in of itself, but sending him to the war just makes not only him seem like a total dope, but Indy, too, for not talking him out of it - which, again, given his character, should have been the easiest thing in the world.

As for Helena... oy. She doesn't work as a character, because she's really two characters: an unlikable, amoral rogue in the first act, and a devoted and loving goddaughter in the third act. The audience can only guess that bonding with Indy during their second-act tomb raiding inspired her to reform her errant ways, because there certainly isn't any evident justification for this change.

More quibbles: the kid character is completely unnecessary, and shouldn't have been included. Also: no offense to cabbies, but I'd expect more from Sallah than mere cab-driving from a guy as intelligent and brave as him after being in the States for ~20 years. (Couldn't he have become a formidable history professor, also?) And, there's just no good reason, other than lazy writing, for Voller to appear in the prologue if there's no justification for his instantaneous belief in the dial's power - and there isn't. (Granted, it does set up Voller's distrust for Hitler's poor decision-making, but the Führer's blunders are already legendary in number and scale, so that hardly seems necessary.)

The movie's action is... okay. All the major sequences drag on much too long, and without any injuries or sense of exhaustion to give them the edge a sequel to Raiders should have.

As for the idea of Indy retiring in Ancient Syracuse... to my surprise, I really liked it, and felt it justified the otherwise b-a-n-a-n-a-s plot swerve of actually traveling two thousand years into the past. But, by bringing (forcing) Indy back to the present, it merely amounted to a bananas plot swerve for the sake of an action climax. What's more, it made Voller into a total idiot, by rushing into a fissure on blind faith that not only would this dial have perfect accuracy, but that he understood how it works/how to read it, despite never having possessed it for more than a few minutes in the dark. It might have been one thing had Indy somehow tricked everyone into going to the wrong time, but Voller ended up just playing himself.

Finally, I groaned aloud when Marion showed up just to put a nice bow on the series, because the series just did that last time, and after making her a major character, rather than a 'member berry cameo. If the movie had allotted, say, 10 minutes otherwise given to the endless action sequences to showing them struggling to hold their relationship together after Mutt's death, their reunion might have been more effective, but to me at least, bringing her in for only the last scene felt like an unearned flashing "SURPRISE! APPLAUSE!" sign. Their scene replaying the Raiders dialogue did somewhat redeem said ending, however.

In conclusion, Indiana Jones and Hermione's Time-Turner is merely mid, and too damn long. It's better than Skull, and, though much less interesting, far more tolerable than the headache-inducing Doom. But it lacks Last Crusade's goofy charm and emotionally earned ending, let alone Raiders' genuine greatness.

Now, instead of rebooting/recasting Indy, can't we just come up with an entirely new 1930s archaeological adventurer? It worked for The Mummy '99, which is still the second-best archaeological adventure flick ever made. :bolian:
 
The Dial of Destiny was very awesome to watch.
Basically, the background of the story is simple; "remember us, those who came from thousands of years ago, before we were. Remember our struggles, our loss, our triumph and take the best of all and build a more glorious humanity. Remember us when you venture into the unknowns of space, for we will be there, in the constellations, to draw power from in your time of war and love to ensure humanity survives."
 
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