I Don't Understand Enterprise Vulcans.

[The Master of Tarquin Hill]

I really did not like what happened to the Vulcans in ENTERPRISE. TOS Spock has always been adamant, absolutely adamant that Vulcans were bread to peace, that Surak's logic alone had saved them, and that after the Romulan split, Vulcan society's been relatively stable and unchanged. These creatively bankrupt writers just cannot stand not to screw around with established mythos, by introducing these "fresh" elements of straying Vulcans, whilst having their government run by a Romulan spy.

And making Vulcan girls go through Pon Farr, now it's just an analogy for puberty, isn't it? Which I found to be completely absurd and absolutely hateful. I liked it when only Vulcan Males had to endure it, it gave the species a truly alien quality. Not anymore. I know fans are quick to rationalize these lapses in logic by stating how "just as there are different kinds of Humans, there are different kinds of Vulcans," and whatever else. Rubbish.

Do that and now they're not aliens, anymore, it's just some actor from the American mid-west, with a bad wig and strange-looking prosthetics. I did like going to Vulcan, in these and other episodes, though. Especially when so much of what we see was based, somewhat, on the STAR TREK cartoons. But, it seems, for every one thing Vulcans are allowed to get right in ENTERPRISE, they've got to take three steps back, somewhere else, for it.

I must admit, I am amazed by how I kinda agree w/ your 1st paragraph and totally reject your other two paragraphs.

A tribute to the bird, I suppose.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I must admit, I am amazed by how I kinda agree w/ your 1st paragraph and totally reject your other two paragraphs.

What you call amazement, I say makes perfect sense. You were doing alright, there, until you got to the "I totally reject" part ... that's where you lost me.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

If I am not mistaken, T'Pol's artificially induced Pon Farr came before the revelation of the Kir'Sharra. Before then, many Vulcan mystical arts, mind melds in particular, were largely taboo, reason for dismissal from official posts. Even if they were still bound at childhood, I doubt it would have the same resonance that it would come to have in Spock's era. Consequentially, Pon Farr may have had a more aggressive psychology, and the person experiencing it, not being psychically bonded to another person, may be willing to find relief with anyone. Spock, bound to T'Pring through more modern mystical practices, may feel that only T'Pring can satisfy him.

 

[borgboy]

If I am not mistaken, T'Pol's artificially induced Pon Farr came before the revelation of the Kir'Sharra. Before then, many Vulcan mystical arts, mind melds in particular, were largely taboo, reason for dismissal from official posts. Even if they were still bound at childhood, I doubt it would have the same resonance that it would come to have in Spock's era. Consequentially, Pon Farr may have had a more aggressive psychology, and the person experiencing it, not being psychically bonded to another person, may be willing to find relief with anyone. Spock, bound to T'Pring through more modern mystical practices, may feel that only T'Pring can satisfy him.

I agree with all that.
Also, Spock was engaged to T'Pring, so he's not going to want to just get his pon farr on with just anyone. That's not Spock's way, and he was deeply ashamed, at least it seemed like it to me, about the pon farr and the lack of control it gave him. He wasn't going to want to expose that side of himself to an outsider. T'Pring, as a Vulcan, would understand what was going on and he wouldn't have to be embaressed in front of her.

 

[Timewalker]

WHEN will see a male Vulcan in a pony tail, when when when..

Even the Fusion Vulcans sported the same bowl cuts.

Okay Sybok was a wild dude, but is he the only fashion rebel among the male gender in Vulcan town?

I can point you to some illustrated online fanfic that says there are other male Vulcan social rebels... the character is not only a fashion rebel, he's also a red-haired Vulcan.

As far as I know, we never knew that Vulcan women didn't go thru pon farr. I always assumed they did, and that T'Pring's pon farr just hadn't happened yet. No reason that her pon farr cycle would be in synch with Spock's.

There's every reason that her pon farr cycle would be in synch with Spock's, because otherwise the cycle would come at less than 7-year intervals.

I think the different reactions of Spock and T'Pol are differences between the two individuals and doesn't have to be seen as a gender difference.
I'd think pon farr would cause chaos, that's part of why the Vulcans are so secretive and ashamed of it. I don't see how or why Spock and T'Pring's cycles would be in synch, as they weren't even around each other. Perhaps in a traditional marriage or engagement the couple's frequent proximity would have synched their pon farr cycle up thru hormones and what not, much in the way that women who lived together often sych up their menstral cycles.
...

T'Pring is beautiful and scheaming, but very cool headed. She's not going thru pon farr. Stonn shows signs of emotion when T'Pring doesn't choose him as her champion. He probably just has poor control of his emotions, the Vulcan equivilant of being big, dumb and pretty, but it does occur to me you could make an argument that his lack of control could be due to early onset of pon farr.

I never thought about it before, but Stonn almost certainly would have a fiancee of his own out there somewhere. This whole scenerio is probably the Vulcan version of the Jerry Springer Show, no wonder T'Pau is in such a bad mood at having to be faced with so much drama, and in front of humans no less.

First of all, Spock and T'Pring's cycles are in synch (well, they were before the events of Amok Time). A psychic bond would have been established between them at their betrothal at age 7, so that when the Time came later, they would both be drawn to Koon-ut-kal-i-fee. It has nothing whatsoever to do with how close they are to one another physically. If physical proximity were the case, married Vulcans wouldn't ever be allowed off the planet!

How do we know T'Pring isn't going through pon farr? As you say, she's cold and scheming... and has a hell of a lot better emotional control than either Spock or Stonn (unless you count greed as an emotion).

As for Stonn, some of us discussed his case in another thread. I made the arguments that it's possible that Stonn did have a fiancee but she died young, or perhaps he was never betrothed at all. In a society where most marriages are arranged for the mutual benefit of both families, it's entirely possible that Stonn was rejected on any number of grounds, from intelligence, lack of emotional control, career prospects, his family's social or financial standing, or how many degrees of separation his lineage might be to some ancient noble family. Or maybe Stonn's parents might not have believed in arranged marriages and let their son choose. We don't get to know why he's unmarried and unbetrothed in this episode.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

First of all, Spock and T'Pring's cycles are in synch (well, they were before the events of Amok Time). A psychic bond would have been established between them at their betrothal at age 7, so that when the Time came later, they would both be drawn to Koon-ut-kal-i-fee. It has nothing whatsoever to do with how close they are to one another physically. If physical proximity were the case, married Vulcans wouldn't ever be allowed off the planet!

How do we know T'Pring isn't going through pon farr? As you say, she's cold and scheming... and has a hell of a lot better emotional control than either Spock or Stonn (unless you count greed as an emotion).

The existence of the koon-ut-kal-if-fee suggests that sometimes Vulcan women choose not to mate with the person chosen for them. Their bonding, which is a ritual act, perhaps has some aspect that it allows the individual to minimize or ignore the effects of the pon farr if they have a different object of affection. Perhaps priest will secretly undo the bonding. Regardless, T'Pring went to the ceremony believing that she would mate with Stonn, either because Spock is killed or is disgusted with her. Moreover, it's probable that the agressiveness of the pon farr increases with the uncertainty of being able to mate (see Vorik).

 

[Saganistheman]

First of all, Spock and T'Pring's cycles are in synch (well, they were before the events of Amok Time).

How do you know this beyond speculation?

 

[Timewalker]

First of all, Spock and T'Pring's cycles are in synch (well, they were before the events of Amok Time).

How do you know this beyond speculation?

They both showed up at the appointed place at the right time, didn't they?

 

[borgboy]

WHEN will see a male Vulcan in a pony tail, when when when..

Even the Fusion Vulcans sported the same bowl cuts.

Okay Sybok was a wild dude, but is he the only fashion rebel among the male gender in Vulcan town?

I can point you to some illustrated online fanfic that says there are other male Vulcan social rebels... the character is not only a fashion rebel, he's also a red-haired Vulcan.

As far as I know, we never knew that Vulcan women didn't go thru pon farr. I always assumed they did, and that T'Pring's pon farr just hadn't happened yet. No reason that her pon farr cycle would be in synch with Spock's.

There's every reason that her pon farr cycle would be in synch with Spock's, because otherwise the cycle would come at less than 7-year intervals.

I think the different reactions of Spock and T'Pol are differences between the two individuals and doesn't have to be seen as a gender difference.
I'd think pon farr would cause chaos, that's part of why the Vulcans are so secretive and ashamed of it. I don't see how or why Spock and T'Pring's cycles would be in synch, as they weren't even around each other. Perhaps in a traditional marriage or engagement the couple's frequent proximity would have synched their pon farr cycle up thru hormones and what not, much in the way that women who lived together often sych up their menstral cycles.
...

T'Pring is beautiful and scheaming, but very cool headed. She's not going thru pon farr. Stonn shows signs of emotion when T'Pring doesn't choose him as her champion. He probably just has poor control of his emotions, the Vulcan equivilant of being big, dumb and pretty, but it does occur to me you could make an argument that his lack of control could be due to early onset of pon farr.

I never thought about it before, but Stonn almost certainly would have a fiancee of his own out there somewhere. This whole scenerio is probably the Vulcan version of the Jerry Springer Show, no wonder T'Pau is in such a bad mood at having to be faced with so much drama, and in front of humans no less.

First of all, Spock and T'Pring's cycles are in synch (well, they were before the events of Amok Time). A psychic bond would have been established between them at their betrothal at age 7, so that when the Time came later, they would both be drawn to Koon-ut-kal-i-fee. It has nothing whatsoever to do with how close they are to one another physically. If physical proximity were the case, married Vulcans wouldn't ever be allowed off the planet!

How do we know T'Pring isn't going through pon farr? As you say, she's cold and scheming... and has a hell of a lot better emotional control than either Spock or Stonn (unless you count greed as an emotion).

As for Stonn, some of us discussed his case in another thread. I made the arguments that it's possible that Stonn did have a fiancee but she died young, or perhaps he was never betrothed at all. In a society where most marriages are arranged for the mutual benefit of both families, it's entirely possible that Stonn was rejected on any number of grounds, from intelligence, lack of emotional control, career prospects, his family's social or financial standing, or how many degrees of separation his lineage might be to some ancient noble family. Or maybe Stonn's parents might not have believed in arranged marriages and let their son choose. We don't get to know why he's unmarried and unbetrothed in this episode.

I do like the explanations of why Stonn might be unmated.
I still don't see any proof that T'Pring was in pon farr - . I assume that T'Pring knew when the come to the ceremony the same way T'Pau and all her hunky guards or whatever they were knew. I'm assuming someone, Spock or Uhura, or whoever, contacted the necessary people when they got near Vulcan.
I believe there was some speculation that Spock being half human might not even have gone thru pon farr.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^Maybe T'Pring had already stasified the pon farr ... with Stonn. He looked like a Vulcan who was getting himself some.

 

[borgboy]

^Maybe T'Pring had already stasified the pon farr ... with Stonn. He looked like a Vulcan who was getting himself some.

I almost said the same thing. I think it's very possible that T'Pring and Stonn were getting it on. I don't think they were though, I think she'd have made somebody marry her before she gave up her V card, but she herself admits that if she did marry Spock that she'd be screwing Stonn as soon as Spock was off the planet.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^Yeah, I had to get it in. You're probably correct: she waited to dissolve the intimacy with Spock before becoming physical with Stonn. It's hard to know how Vulcans feel about infidelity or promiscuity. T'Pol complained about human sexual immaturity, and she didn't condemn the open relations of the Denobulans.

 

[borgboy]

I think T'Pol's comments could be interpreted as humans having pre marital sex promiscuity, sex without commitment, or commentary on the shallowness of sex without a telepathic bond. It's very open to interpretation, but it's an interesting comment. T'Pol probably didn't want to think about Phlox's sex life any more than she had to. Kidding, T'Pol would be all about diversity and all that. I'm sure the Denobulan group marriage was logical in it's own way.

 

[Saganistheman]

First of all, Spock and T'Pring's cycles are in synch (well, they were before the events of Amok Time).

How do you know this beyond speculation?

They both showed up at the appointed place at the right time, didn't they?

That doesn't mean that they are linked in any way. I am speculating myself here because I am sure the Enterprise had to let Vulcan know they were in orbit and apprised the Vulcan's of their situation. This is pure speculation though just like you are speculating that they were "in sync" with each other.

My question is again how do you know this. What is your source for making that statement without speculation?

 

[You_Will_Fail]

Perhaps it would help if you could tell us what exactly it is about ENT Vulcans that you find confusing.

If I could tell you exactly what it is about ENT Vulcans that I find confusing, I probably wouldn't be confused...no?

No, not being able to articulate your reasons makes you an idiot. Leaving thread now...

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Perhaps it would help if you could tell us what exactly it is about ENT Vulcans that you find confusing.

If I could tell you exactly what it is about ENT Vulcans that I find confusing, I probably wouldn't be confused...no?

No, not being able to articulate your reasons makes you an idiot. Leaving thread now...

You can run, but you can't hide.

You have been cautioned against this in the past, so you know better than to indulge in this gleeful sort of name-calling.

Warning for flaming. Comments to PM.

 

[Timewalker]

How do you know this beyond speculation?

They both showed up at the appointed place at the right time, didn't they?

That doesn't mean that they are linked in any way. I am speculating myself here because I am sure the Enterprise had to let Vulcan know they were in orbit and apprised the Vulcan's of their situation. This is pure speculation though just like you are speculating that they were "in sync" with each other.

My question is again how do you know this. What is your source for making that statement without speculation?

The ceremony Spock and T'Pring went through as children included a telepathic bonding so they would be drawn together years later, when the time was right.

And I highly doubt the Enterprise would settle into orbit and say, "This is Enterprise. Mr. Spock is going through pon farr and would like his fiancee to meet him for the wedding." Since Vulcans don't even talk to each other about this unless it's critical (and they still find it distasteful), they wouldn't be too pleased at some Enterprise communications officer letting others know Spock's personal business.


As for the issue of their ages: Again, I'm drawing from Trek magazine essays so it's not canon, just well-thought out extrapolation. Spock is half-human so he would likely mature faster than a full Vulcan. Therefore, it would have taken T'Pring longer to mature physically and mentally, and so Spock's first pon farr didn't occur until T'Pring was ready.

 

[borgboy]

It is interesting, and maybe a little strange, that Spock has some unknown pon farr cycles thru his life, as far as what we see of him. A lot of years pass between Amok Time and ST III, but he seems to be unmated, so there should be a couple of pon farr cycles unexplained. TNG do mention Picard meeting Sarek at his son's wedding, so we know Spock married at some point. The novels expand on that, and I know there are at least two different novels that explore Spock's second pon farr, but even that still leaves at least one or two pon farr cycles that I don't know anything about.
It's interesting, since you'd think that logicly, Spock would've found a wife before pon farr hit again. Mate or die would be a pretty big incentive to make plans you'd think, but then we've seen that Vulcans can be pretty illogical in dealing with pon farr.
I would think that Spock still made some discrete communications once they got in Vulcan's orbit. Even if we buy that T'Pring was called to the ceremony due to telepathy, and I'm not saying I agree with that, somebody still had to tell T'Pau to come with a bunch of hunky half naked guards, or whatever those guys were.

 

[Timewalker]

The way I see it, T'Pring would likely be the one to have a discreet conversation with T'Pau. Or maybe that's something the bride's parents are supposed to do. I have no idea, since neither Spock nor T'Pring had any family there. I'm surmising that the "bring your closest friend(s)" is how T'Pring got Stonn into the wedding party.

 

[Captain Kathryn]

I admit,I did not watch ENT in it's original run. The early eps turned me off.

Since that time I have watched ENT from beginning to end at least 3 times(this in conjunction with the other series(the whole completionist thang)).

I still don't understand Vulcans in ENT.

What am I missing?

I have to admit that when I first watched ENT, I was surprised at the animosity between Vulcans and Humans because of having watched mainly VOY, TNG, and DS9 where most of those Vulcan/Human issues whatever they were...anyway, they were mostly solved by the era of TNG-VOY.

So for me, watching ENT...during the first few episodes I was appalled at the way they treated T'Pol. I was equally appalled at the fact that Vulcans were so controlling over the actions of humans.

However, looking back at Star Trek as a whole...it was a different time. For example, the relationship between different ethnicities and religions was undoubtedly more strained in the U.S during the time of slavery and injustice. But now that has decreased by so much that you almost would not recognize or relate to fellow humans from the 1800s. Time changes a lot!

I have no idea what YOU found confusing while watching the show. But the strained relationship between Vulcans and Humans was obviously a great source of conflict, unlike it was in the 24th Century-set shows.

I was also confused at some points when ENT mentioned earlier Vulcans banning mind melds or at the very least making them socially unacceptable. Because I watched so many episodes of VOY where Tuvok just starts melding with people, it was a bit disorienting for it to suddenly be a "taboo" thing in ENT.

But I kind of just accepted the fact that they are depicting an earlier time period and that was the cause for the differential in Vulcan behavior.