How Can Religion Get Portrayed Like DS9 Again?

[Greg Cox]

Nobody has ever passed a law stopping Christians from practicing their faith in their own homes and places of worship and lives. What people rightly object to is the law treating any one religion as first among equals. You either recognize all of them officially or you recognize none of them.

And, yes, SOME Christians (as opposed to all of them) seem to have defined "persecution" as having to acknowledge that their religion is not the only one that matters.

"Ohmigod, I just walked through a mall that's been positively buried in Christmas decorations and Christmas music since before Thanksgiving, but somebody just had the nerve to say 'Happy Holidays' instead of 'Merry Christmas." What is the world coming to?"

 

[BillJ]

Nobody has ever passed a law stopping Christians from practicing their faith in their own homes and places of worship and lives. What people rightly object to is the law treating any one religion as first among equals. You either recognize all of them officially or you recognize none of them.

What boggles my mind is the thought that we should stick our heads in the sand when God (if there is one) gave us logic, reason, science and the universe. Why do we need any of those things if we're supposed to just be sheep?

 

[Timewalker]

"Excuse me. Do you have a few minutes to discuss the vast indifference of the universe? I have some literature I'd like to share with you."

The word "evangelical" was not coined to describe unbelievers.

One of the Canadian political satire shows - I think it was "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" - did a skit where somebody went door to door, asking people if they wanted to talk about not believing. Most people thought they were nuts.

Not knocking on your door, they're down at the court house "pushing" a non-belief in God through the legal system.

Why ask people to change their beliefs, when you can force the issue using new laws?

Oh, please. Nobody is "pushing a non-belief in God through the legal system." Both Canada and the U.S. have constitutional guarantees that people are free to believe in any religion they want, or no religion, if that's their preference.

Making a law that creationism/ID can't be taught in science classes isn't "pushing a non-belief in God". It's making sure that science is taught in science classes. If you want to talk about Genesis and Noah's Ark, that's what church and home bible study classes are for. Or you could always attend a faith-based school or opt for home schooling.

There are many other examples I could give, but it would derail the topic even more so I won't. As a moderator mentioned upthread, this is a tangent better discussed in Miscellaneous.

Nobody has ever passed a law stopping Christians from practicing their faith in their own homes and places of worship and lives. What people rightly object to is the law treating any one religion as first among equals. You either recognize all of them officially or you recognize none of them.

And, yes, SOME Christians (as opposed to all of them) seem to have defined "persecution" as having to acknowledge that their religion is not the only one that matters.

"Ohmigod, I just walked through a mall that's been positively buried in Christmas decorations and Christmas music since before Thanksgiving, but somebody just had the nerve to say 'Happy Holidays' instead of 'Merry Christmas." What is the world coming to?"

Yep, this "war on Christmas" refrain got tiresome a very long time ago.

 

[The Old Mixer]

As a moderator mentioned upthread, this is a tangent better discussed in Miscellaneous.

And my finger's still hovering over the red button. I don't want to shut down this discussion per se, but it's metamorphosed into something that's not about speculating how Trek might handle religion.

 

[Timewalker]

How cool would it be, though, to pass out copies of "The Big Book of the Universe" to people?

You mean the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?

Hmm... I just got an idea for a DS9 fanfic, which I will not say anything more about, since there are pro authors posting here.

 

[Amaris]

You mean the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?

Hmm... I just got an idea for a DS9 fanfic, which I will not say anything more about, since there are pro authors posting here.

True, "Hitchhiker's Guide" would make a great door to door book, but I like "The Big Book of the Universe" because of the gorgeous full color photos of various stars, planets, and nebulae. ♥

 

[Timewalker]

True, "Hitchhiker's Guide" would make a great door to door book, but I like "The Big Book of the Universe" because of the gorgeous full color photos of various stars, planets, and nebulae. ♥

Why not combine both?

*knock knock*

"Yes?"

*Do you know where your towel is?*

"?????"

*Get your towel, and take a look at this marvelous book of stars, planets, nebulae, and galaxies. There's a Vogon freighter due to pass Earth in 10 minutes, and I'm here to offer you a tour of the Universe.*

"Twit. " <SLAM!>

 

[Amaris]

Why not combine both?

*knock knock*

"Yes?"

*Do you know where your towel is?*

"?????"

*Get your towel, and take a look at this marvelous book of stars, planets, nebulae, and galaxies. There's a Vogon freighter due to pass Earth in 10 minutes, and I'm here to offer you a tour of the Universe.*

"Twit. " <SLAM!>

Informative AND entertaining? That sounds like win/win to me.

 

[The Katatonic]

The vast majority of the human race live in Africa, South America and Asia (especially Asia). Just sayin'
Mind you, I also believe--and history actually backs me up on this--religion is an expression of the search for answers involving spirituality. That word has many meanings, but at heart it involves a search for non-materialistic answers. How do we reconcile ourselves to death for example? Not only our own deaths, but death in general? Why must things end? How can we find a way to bear living in a universe so seething with hurt and suffering?
Yeah, there are the purely superstitious responses. Winter comes because Demeter mourns the loss of her daughter. The rainbow is a promise God will never again destroy the world. Thunder is when Thor crosses the sky in his chariot. And so on.
But when you leave the world of Fundamentalist religion, a different approach appears. Whether you yourself wish to find out anything about that remains totally up to you. Yet for many, those questions are not going away. Not for all. But plenty of us feel just how keen those questions can be--which the cold facts and statistics giving no real answer at all, because science at heart only describes what physically IS, not how we must find a way to live with it.
And if you believe religion always gives the wrong answer--so be it. All I ask is that you respect my belief you happen to be mistaken--especially since I ask no one to blindly obey any priest, no scientist to adhere to any doctrine, demand no one legislate any religious rules into law, ask for special privileges for my own or anyone else's faith. Yeah, there are others who do. But I do not. And there are plenty of theists like me. Really.
Also, kindly don't put words in my mouth. Sorry to sound snarky but I keep seeing that happen a lot of late, just in life. Sorry for my mood.

Personally, I have all sorts of friends. Some of my favourite friends are hardcore, churchgoing Catholics. They and I have can civil discussions about religions and gods or the lack thereof because we respect that at the end of the day, we will not change the other's minds, but we MAY change how they/I view the subject at hand in a different way.

 

[Tenacity]

Or you could always attend a faith-based school or opt for home schooling.

And having all education money distributed in the form of school vouchers tied to individual students would be great way of making those options available.

Parents would also have the option (with vouchers) of sending their children to completely secular private schools, likely they would have to add family money on top of the voucher. But they wouldn't have to pay the tuition entirely out of they own pockets.

My impression is that Jake Sisko (outside of a very brief time period of Keiko schooling) was essentially "home schooled" while on DS9.

Sliding somewhat back to the OP. My interpretation of the Federation would be that as a organization it wouldn't have a official position on religion/atheism, this would be outside of it's purview.

Starfleet's policies would recognize that it's people have various positions on the subject and that as long their practices did not interfere with duty requirements, it was their own business.

Starfleet does have multi-faith chaplains and makes reasonable time, space and supplies available for observances.

In addition to the chaplains, small groups of personnel of a particular faith might have a agreed upon religious leader, eg a group of Jews aboard a starship would have one of their group be the Cantor.

Should a Starfleet officer die in service, Starfleet (to the extent possible) will take their religious beliefs into consideration in terms of death rituals and disposition of the remains (if any).

 

[Timewalker]

And having all education money distributed in the form of school vouchers tied to individual students would be great way of making those options available.

Parents would also have the option (with vouchers) of sending their children to completely secular private schools, likely they would have to add family money on top of the voucher. But they wouldn't have to pay the tuition entirely out of they own pockets.

Aren't public schools already supposed to be completely secular?

Oh, wait. I'm thinking of Canada, post-Charter of Rights. Before that, some of my public school teachers felt free to push their own religious beliefs in class, whether it was mandatory prayers, reading religious texts, or being coerced to say that the Bible depicts real history.

My impression is that Jake Sisko (outside of a very brief time period of Keiko schooling) was essentially "home schooled" while on DS9.

Before the war with the Borg, most of the Galaxy-class starships (Sisko served on one, I believe) had areas set aside for families, day care, and school rooms. Jake likely received a combination of classroom and home-school education. Once at DS9, the classroom part of that would no longer be feasible and he was likely enrolled in the 24th-century equivalent of "distance learning". Hence, he had time to goof off with Nog.

 

[Tenacity]

Yep, this "war on Christmas" refrain got tiresome a very long time ago.

People of faith found the war on Christmas tiresome right from the get go.

Aren't public schools already supposed to be completely secular?

Which would be strange given the majority of the population isn't completely secular.

If we had a voucher system, parents could send their children to a school that reflect the education they wish for their children, including a secular one.

Before that, some of my public school teachers felt free to push their own religious beliefs in class

And now teachers in publicly supported colleges are allowed to push their own anti-religious beliefs in class.

If you advocate a neutral position, this doesn't sound like one.

 

[Timewalker]

People of faith found the war on Christmas tiresome right from the get go.Which would be strange given the majority of the population isn't completely secular.

If we had a voucher system, parents could send their children to a school that reflect the education they wish for their children, including a secular one.And now teachers in publicly supported colleges are allowed to push their own anti-religious beliefs in class.

If you advocate a neutral position, this doesn't sound like one.

I'm willing to discuss this with you here as long as at least part of it is about Star Trek/DS9. I think at this point we should either take it to private messaging or you could start a new thread in the Miscellaneous section. Feel free to start a Conversation with me and let me know, because otherwise I think the moderator will crack down on this.

 

[JWPlatt]

I think that Star Trek can benefit from portraying religion in a positive and curious light like in Deep Space Nine.

Things like this just turn into the bizarre affectation of the week that's painful to watch. Nose bumps and the odd "Backhand Patty Cake" clap (DS9), alien teenagers screeching when distressed (TNG), food ingestion misinterpreted as a lewd sexual act (ENT), and so forth. DS9 was able to build a lot of depth behind the story to integrate religion and politics, but a lot of it was still just the bizarre affectation of the week.

I suppose Nimoy's Vulcan gesture fits the pattern, so I'm not sure where the line of respect is, except his gesture is derived from real human tradition. Most Star Trek affectations just seem silly, maybe because it seems the thinking is "What can we make human actors do that looks odd enough to other humans to appear alien?" Well, we don't know what real aliens do, which is why it seems silly when it's simply derived from our own vision of strange.

 

[Timewalker]

Things like this just turn into the bizarre affection of the week that's painful to watch. Nose bumps and the odd "Backhand Patty Cake" clap (DS9), alien teenagers screeching when distressed (TNG), food ingestion misinterpreted as a lewd sexual act (ENT), and so forth. DS9 was able to build a lot of depth behind the story to integrate religion and politics, but a lot of it was still just the bizarre affection of the week.

I suppose Nimoy's Vulcan gesture fits the pattern, so I'm not sure where the line of respect is, except his gesture is derived from real human tradition. Most Star Trek affectations just seem silly, maybe because it seems the thinking is "What can we make human actors do that looks odd enough to other humans to appear alien?" Well, we don't know what real aliens do, which is why it seems silly when it's simply derived from our own vision of strange.

I don't see how the Vulcan salute could be considered a "bizarre affectation of the week." Nimoy was correct in realizing that various cultures have their own ways of giving formal greetings - handshakes, bowing, nodding, etc. and that it would be logical to assume that the Vulcans did as well.

So what if he borrowed a gesture from a RL religious ritual? It was never meant in any derogatory way, and most of the audience would have been unfamiliar with it in its RL context. The fact that it has been used in Star Trek and among fans from "Journey to Babel" until the present day disqualifies it as just another " bizarre affectation of the week."

 

[BillJ]

People of faith found the war on Christmas tiresome right from the get go.

Since the US is 77% Christian (of one variety or another/http://www.gallup.com/poll/180347/three-quarters-americans-identify-christian.aspx), I'd like to see where this "War on Christmas" actually played out? Or do you mean people actually having the audacity to recognize that more than just Christmas (which isn't even Christ's actual birthday) happen in December?

The "War on Christmas" is right-wing hogwash designed to fire up their base.

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[JWPlatt]

I don't see how the Vulcan salute could be considered a "bizarre affectation of the week." Nimoy was correct in realizing that various cultures have their own ways of giving formal greetings - handshakes, bowing, nodding, etc. and that it would be logical to assume that the Vulcans did as well.

So what if he borrowed a gesture from a RL religious ritual? It was never meant in any derogatory way, and most of the audience would have been unfamiliar with it in its RL context. The fact that it has been used in Star Trek and among fans from "Journey to Babel" until the present day disqualifies it as just another " bizarre affectation of the week."

The meaning of what I wrote is that the Vulcan gesture is likely more acceptable and less a bizarre affectation of the week because it does come from real life and has real meaning. Nimoy brought grace and meaning to it. As opposed to asking actors to just do something odd (sometimes just looking like a mental illness) to appear alien. By concentrating on what was intended to be a contrasting example and misinterpreting it, you missed the focus of the post.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The meaning of what I wrote is that the Vulcan gesture is likely more acceptable and less a bizarre affectation of the week because it does come from real life and has real meaning.

How many people knew that in 1966?

 

[Timewalker]

The meaning of what I wrote is that the Vulcan gesture is likely more acceptable and less a bizarre affectation of the week because it does come from real life and has real meaning. Nimoy brought grace and meaning to it. As opposed to asking actors to just do something odd (sometimes just looking like a mental illness) to appear alien. By concentrating on what was intended to be a contrasting example and misinterpreting it, you missed the focus of the post.

No, the only error I made in my post was in which episode the Vulcan salute debuted. I should have said "Amok Time."

 

[JWPlatt]

Lump it in if you'd like to willfully misunderstand. I don't find bizarre or neurotic behavior for the sake of appearing alien very attractive in Star Trek. Alien has been done much better in Star Trek (and other fictions) than silly affectations.

That said, I was amused by the one guy on Voyager, whose entire race certainly is overdue for intense psychotherapy, that Neelix had to talk to by incorporating bizarre body language. It was clever and kind of LOL-funny, so there are exceptions.

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