How Can Religion Get Portrayed Like DS9 Again?

[Ralphis]

I don't want you to feel that I was attacking your statement or being confrontational. I was just interested as to where you come upon that piece of information.

Maybe a poll, there have been a few through the years.

My perception is that while Trek fans do hold (proportionately) a few more percentage points of people who are non-spiritual or anti-spiritual than the general Human population, for the most part "Trekkies" aren't too from the general population percentages on the matter.

Nah, it was just an off-the-cuff remark I made with little thought and no evidence to support it, other than my personal experiences with fellow Trekkies out there in the real world. I need to pay more attention to how I word things. I regretted the comment even before you quoted it.

 

[Longinus]

Religion in DS9 was cringeworthy. Sisko's adulation of the Prophets was embarrassing, and he should have been fired at the point he started taking their advice over that of the Federation government. Contrast that to Picard's attitude towards Q, a being who by any reasonable definition is a god (much more so than the wormhole aliens.)

Roddenberry was right. His notion that the humanity would have overcome the silly superstitions of the past by the 24th century is most clearly represented in TNG, and that is one of (the many) things that makes it the best Trek show.

 

[Tenacity]

nd he should have been fired at the point he started taking their advice over that of the Federation government

Hey, did the Federation government cause Sisko to be conceived?

I don't think so.

 

[Voth commando1]

Hey, did the Federation government cause Sisko to be conceived?

I don't think so.

That was one of the worst things DS9 ever did, hey not only is the hero subservient to a bunch of alien deities but they mind raped his mom and made him born too! I hate hate hate that.

 

[David.Blue]

That was one of the worst things DS9 ever did, hey not only is the hero subservient to a bunch of alien deities but they mind raped his mom and made him born too! I hate hate hate that.

Personally I agree. I loved DS9 overall, but every single TREK has something I really, really dislike sooner or later.

 

[The Katatonic]

Religion in DS9 was cringeworthy. Sisko's adulation of the Prophets was embarrassing, and he should have been fired at the point he started taking their advice over that of the Federation government. Contrast that to Picard's attitude towards Q, a being who by any reasonable definition is a god (much more so than the wormhole aliens.)

Roddenberry was right. His notion that the humanity would have overcome the silly superstitions of the past by the 24th century is most clearly represented in TNG, and that is one of (the many) things that makes it the best Trek show.

As much as I admire your assertion that Roddenberry was "right"...I am not entirely sure the majority of humanity will EVER be over their silly superstitions. To go into the reasons why I believe that religions will always dominate humans will take up a lot more time and keystrokes than I am willing to put in to right now, but I have researched enough and observed enough to state it as my opinion. It is not fact...if anything, it would be lovely to think that 300 years from now humankind will have miraculously severed the beliefs in higher powers that has dominated their thinking since they could have their first logical, non-primate thought. I am just skeptical that it will happen.

 

[Longinus]

As much as I admire your assertion that Roddenberry was "right"...I am not entirely sure the majority of humanity will EVER be over their silly superstitions. To go into the reasons why I believe that religions will always dominate humans will take up a lot more time and keystrokes than I am willing to put in to right now, but I have researched enough and observed enough to state it as my opinion. It is not fact...if anything, it would be lovely to think that 300 years from now humankind will have miraculously severed the beliefs in higher powers that has dominated their thinking since they could have their first logical, non-primate thought. I am just skeptical that it will happen.

Well, it is happening in Europe already. In many European countries the irreligious are already the majority an their numbers are steadily increasing. Whether the trend will continue and whether it could encompass the whole humanity in few hundred years is of course debatable, but then again, Trek's view of humanity's future has always been highly optimistic in general.

 

[BillJ]

I hope the showrunners of Discovery stuff religion into a photon torpedo casing, and launch it into the Sun.

 

[David.Blue]

The vast majority of the human race live in Africa, South America and Asia (especially Asia). Just sayin'
Mind you, I also believe--and history actually backs me up on this--religion is an expression of the search for answers involving spirituality. That word has many meanings, but at heart it involves a search for non-materialistic answers. How do we reconcile ourselves to death for example? Not only our own deaths, but death in general? Why must things end? How can we find a way to bear living in a universe so seething with hurt and suffering?
Yeah, there are the purely superstitious responses. Winter comes because Demeter mourns the loss of her daughter. The rainbow is a promise God will never again destroy the world. Thunder is when Thor crosses the sky in his chariot. And so on.
But when you leave the world of Fundamentalist religion, a different approach appears. Whether you yourself wish to find out anything about that remains totally up to you. Yet for many, those questions are not going away. Not for all. But plenty of us feel just how keen those questions can be--which the cold facts and statistics giving no real answer at all, because science at heart only describes what physically IS, not how we must find a way to live with it.
And if you believe religion always gives the wrong answer--so be it. All I ask is that you respect my belief you happen to be mistaken--especially since I ask no one to blindly obey any priest, no scientist to adhere to any doctrine, demand no one legislate any religious rules into law, ask for special privileges for my own or anyone else's faith. Yeah, there are others who do. But I do not. And there are plenty of theists like me. Really.
Also, kindly don't put words in my mouth. Sorry to sound snarky but I keep seeing that happen a lot of late, just in life. Sorry for my mood.

 

[BillJ]

Also, kindly don't put words in my mouth. Sorry to sound snarky but I keep seeing that happen a lot of late, just in life. Sorry for my mood.

Who are you talking to?

 

[David.Blue]

Who are you talking to?

Honeslty, right now it feels like I'm talking to whole world. But that is my mood, and I did apologize for it. Yet honestly I rarely have a discussion online where somebody didn't put words in my mouth. When it comes to religion, especially.

 

[BillJ]

Honeslty, right now it feels like I'm talking to whole world. But that is my mood, and I did apologize for it. Yet honestly I rarely have a discussion online where somebody didn't put words in my mouth. When it comes to religion, especially.

I haven't seen anyone put words in your mouth here. People obviously disagree, but this has been a fairly civil discussion.

 

[Tenacity]

I hope the showrunners of Discovery stuff religion into a photon torpedo casing, and launch it into the Sun.

But the thing is, the complete absence of religion would come off a odd after a short while.

It's like the Roddenberry pronouncement that there would be no conflict among the crew, well that's not how people are, and it felt odd after a while. Even viewers who didn't know about Roddenberry's decision picked up on this, the characters were sometime acting strangely towards each other.

That religion or some form of spirituality isn't in every last episode, okay. But a policy decision by TPTB that there be absolutely nothing religious/spiritual in the show would depict the fictional universe as one that is deliberately distorted.

I don't have to tell you that religion is present in the Trek past, although I can immediately remember any specific incidents in ENT.

but this has been a fairly civil discussion

I can recall previous religious threads that were essentially screaming contests.

 

[Longinus]

But the thing is, the complete absence of religion would come off a odd after a short while.

No it wouldn't. TNG was just fine.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

No it wouldn't. TNG was just fine.

TNG had mention of religion, or do the Edo, the Mintakens, the Bajorans, the Klingons not count? There was also mention of the Hindu Diwali celebration in "Data's Day," referred to as "the Hindu Festival of Lights" and a Shinto Buddhist wedding ceremony as well. As much as Mr. Roddenberry wanted to eliminate religious faith, he really couldn't.
It's all in how we deal with religious faith that matters, I think. DS9 didn't scream, "Follow this faith!" It was, "this is part of this culture and here are some arguments that are made in it." Vedek Bareil and then Vedek Winn talking about the nature of the Prophets' love is something that goes on in different parts of Christianity on Earth now. Is God's love unconditional or is it based upon your behavior? And then there is the story of Winn Adami. She wanted the office of Kai to the point she was willing to bear false witness and do some other pretty despicable things to get it.
TNG got a bit boring, honestly, at times. It tried too hard to be goody-two-shoes. What ultimately has made DS9 my favorite series is that it goes with what is in its world. Religious faith isn't perfect, but we're going to show it, warts and all! Starfleet officers are going to conflict and that's because they're still humanoid and that means they're imperfect. And their world is imperfect.

 

[Longinus]

TNG had mention of religion, or do the Edo, the Mintakens, the Bajorans, the Klingons not count? There was also mention of the Hindu Diwali celebration in "Data's Day," referred to as "the Hindu Festival of Lights" and a Shinto Buddhist wedding ceremony as well. As much as Mr. Roddenberry wanted to eliminate religious faith, he really couldn't.

TNG didn't tend to show 'faith' in positive light. 'Who Watches the Watchers' is one of my all time favourite Trek episodes and Picard's attitude in it towards religion is marvellous. It is of course to OK to have the show to deal with religion if the point is to show the folly of the faith.

I think that in TNG the Federation is consistently portrayed as a society which respects cultural traditions but has forasken the misguided 'faith' in supernatural. Like in the Anglican burial service in sub 'Sub Rosa' where the words "sure and certain hope of the Resurrection unto eternal life" are replaced with "sure and certain hope that her memory will be kept alive within us all." The tradition is preserved, the belief in supernatural is not. I'm sure it is the same thing with the wedding and the Festival of Lights. I don't find this weird at all. I'm an atheist and I celebrated Christmas, as did all my atheist friends.

TNG got a bit boring, honestly, at times. It tried too hard to be goody-two-shoes. What ultimately has made DS9 my favorite series is that it goes with what is in its world. Religious faith isn't perfect, but we're going to show it, warts and all! Starfleet officers are going to conflict and that's because they're still humanoid and that means they're imperfect. And their world is imperfect.

DS9 was a well made show but I really didn't like many of the themes and the attempt to subvert TNG. I didn't find TNG boring, and never while watching it did I think "you know what this show needs, more war, capitalism and religion!"

 

[Peach Wookiee]

I didn't say all of TNG was boring, but it certainly got that way at times.
Longinus, you're looking through your own lens and I'm looking through mine. DS9, for me, is in balance. It shows how people misuse faith and how they can use it to make the world around them better. Major Kira isn't perfect, but she uses what, in her view, the Prophets gave her. She's not ignorant of matters of science or other things in the galaxy and doesn't remain willfully ignorant because she believes the Prophets want her to remain so. She prays, but she also does her part to make her part of the world a better place.
I hope that makes sense to you, and I recognize that we're not going to see eye to eye on this.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

although I can immediately remember any specific incidents in ENT.

Phlox once said he attended a Mass at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

@David.Blue: I've liked the explanation that thunder is angels bowling. I get real laughs out of the image of people in long white robes and wings with those bowling shoes!

 

[Amaris]

@David.Blue: I've liked the explanation that thunder is angels bowling. I get real laughs out of the image of people in long white robes and wings with those bowling shoes!

They probably wear wingtips. *boom* *tish*