How Can Religion Get Portrayed Like DS9 Again?

[The Old Mixer]

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[Tenacity]

No it wouldn't. TNG was just fine.

Yes it was, in part because there wasn't a complete absence of religion.

'Who Watches the Watchers' is one of my all time favourite Trek episodes and Picard's attitude in it towards religion is marvellous.

Countered nicely by Where Silence has Lease, and Picard speaking on his personal believes concerning a afterlife.

And then there's Reunion where Picard says "the Enterprise crew currently includes representatives from thirteen planets. They each have their individual beliefs and values and I respect them all."

The Picard in Who Watches the Watchers is really a different person that the Picard who exists through-out all the other episodes in the series, and in the movies.

It is of course to OK to have the show to deal with religion if the point is to show the folly of the faith.

No, the show should show characters with different religion views and well as those without. Diversity in this area, just as in others.

Having a series with a purposeful dedicated anti-religion agenda (imo) would be a mistake.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Picard in Who Watches the Watchers is really a different person that the Picard who exists through-out all the other episodes in the series, and in the movies.

I've thought about that episode...here is my final interpretation: Picard's hostility towards religion was born out of desperation. His main goal wasn't to get the Mintakans to stop believing in ANY religion - only for them to stop thinking HE was a god. Picard got so desperate and pissed off at the Mintakans that he got overly angry and hostile at them. Thus he briefly went all four wheels off the road and started railing against all religion.

(That happens more often than you might think. A lot of us have, at some times, gotten so angry and frustrated that we say things we don't mean. We might've even believed what we said at that time. But later we realize how stupid it was to say whatever we said.)

Once this episode was past and Picard had enough time to calm down, so to speak, he got back to "reality" and stopped his hate.

 

[Amaris]

I've thought about that episode...here is my final interpretation: Picard's hostility towards religion was born out of desperation. His main goal wasn't to get the Mintakans to stop believing in ANY religion - only for them to stop thinking HE was a god. Picard got so desperate and pissed off at the Mintakans that he got overly angry and hostile at them. Thus he briefly went all four wheels off the road and started railing against all religion.

(That happens more often than you might think. A lot of us have, at some times, gotten so angry and frustrated that we say things we don't mean. We might've even believed what we said at that time. But later we realize how stupid it was to say whatever we said.)

Once this episode was past and Picard had enough time to calm down, so to speak, he got back to "reality" and stopped his hate.

Picard was irritated by the Mintakan's desire to automatically believe unquestioningly. Any kind of fervent belief, that becomes zealotry, is dangerous to others. He wanted to dissuade them of their sudden zealotry. I mean, we have this species who has grown by leaps and bounds in knowledge and reason, and suddenly they're ready to descend into a dark age where everything they've learned is cast aside in favor of superstition and unquestioning belief. That is something we should all fight, regardless of our personal religious or non-religious stances. Picard knew he had to be hard and firm with the Mintakans, before that zealotry took root. So yeah, I agree with this.

 

[Timewalker]

How would a atheist deal with the existence of alien religion? Tolerance or condemnation?

You're asking this on a forum 100% inhabited by science fiction and/or fantasy fans. I would hope that for most of us - whether atheist or not - we would simply accept that alien religions exist (if they do; I refer to some hypothetical future meeting of aliens who may have a religion).

As an atheist I already deal with the existence of religion. My take on it is that as long as they (religious people) don't preach at me or try to pass laws that are harmful or disruptive to having a nonbiased court system, government, education (ie. science classes), health care system, marriage and adoption laws, etc., I'm fine with it.

As for the reference to Young Earth Creationists, that's an argument I prefer to leave on the YouTube pages as it can get very heated, very quickly. All I'm going to say here is that it's bemusing how these people, along with the ID proponents, seem to think a lot more about Charles Darwin than I do. Before I started going online, I'd guesstimate that it was probably at least 25 years since I'd last thought of Darwin.

As for DS9, I have to agree with the posters upthread who found the religion-focused episodes boring. And every time Kai Winn smiled that nauseating smile and addressed Kira and Keiko as "child" in that simpering, smarmy voice... well, let's just say that I loathe that character.

 

[Amaris]

You're asking this on a forum 100% inhabited by science fiction and/or fantasy fans. I would hope that for most of us - whether atheist or not - we would simply accept that alien religions exist (if they do; I refer to some hypothetical future meeting of aliens who may have a religion).

As an atheist I already deal with the existence of religion. My take on it is that as long as they (religious people) don't preach at me or try to pass laws that are harmful or disruptive to having a nonbiased court system, government, education (ie. science classes), health care system, marriage and adoption laws, etc., I'm fine with it.

As for the reference to Young Earth Creationists, that's an argument I prefer to leave on the YouTube pages as it can get very heated, very quickly. All I'm going to say here is that it's bemusing how these people, along with the ID proponents, seem to think a lot more about Charles Darwin than I do. Before I started going online, I'd guesstimate that it was probably at least 25 years since I'd last thought of Darwin.

As for DS9, I have to agree with the posters upthread who found the religion-focused episodes boring. And every time Kai Winn smiled that nauseating smile and addressed Kira and Keiko as "child" in that simpering, smarmy voice... well, let's just say that I loathe that character.

Indeed. As an atheist, I feel you should be free to believe as you wish, so long as you:

a) Harm no one physically, emotionally, or mentally.
b) Don't force me or others to believe, and respect my wish to be left alone when it comes to proselytizing.
c) Don't muscle in and try to merge church and state. Keep them separate.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Having a series with a purposeful dedicated anti-religion agenda (imo) would be a mistake.

It would--but some among the Trek fanbase are as intolerant as the groups they often accuse of the same--

I hope the showrunners of Discovery stuff religion into a photon torpedo casing, and launch it into the Sun.

For another example, it is not uncommon for certain ST fans to argue the long-debunked notion that TOS was anti-religion (ignoring the stated beliefs, quotes and ideas of several characters), or the running theme of exposing anyone falling into the false god category (refer to Kirk's comment to Apollo). Instead, this faction tries to paint ST as universally atheistic and in the event it finds its way into the mouth of a character or part of a plot, must be dismissed, or disrespected as being something with no place with characters, human in particular.

That kind of aggressive behavior would not serve any ST series well, lest the long drum-beat notion of inclusiveness is just lip service.

 

[BadMoonRising]

I find it ironic that Star Trek Fans, who "worship" a show dedicated to peace, understanding, tolerance, and bridging the gap...

....are so militantly anti-religion that entire fan-groups, forums and discussion groups have imploded over the portrayal of religion and faith in Star Trek. Something something Gene said was interpreted as anti-religion and transferred that and interpreted it and twisted it as "The Federation is anti-religion in any form" and that there was no faith or religion in the future in any form and religion was something to be mocked, ridiculed and destroyed.

Whew.

But yes. I've run into far FAR too many of these sorts of people, I had three major role-play fleets all run variations on a "pacification/purification" crusade launched by the Federation against Bajor... with the goal of eradicating all traces of religion and teaching the natives how to behave like civilized beings.

This is on Star Trek Online. I know of at least six such fleets, and at least three fan-made foundry-missions where the Federation crusades Bajor to drive religion out and educate the native.

I have a friend who pitched a novel with a similar theme, obviously rejected.

I have another friend who did an indie-comic with the same theme.

Two conventions I went to back in the day featured round-tables and group discussions where it was asked "why did The Federation not eradicate any trace of religion from Bajor before allowing them to apply for membership...

This basically made me stop being a social Trekkie, because the behavior of the fans disgust me. Eradicate religion? Federation-led purity missions? Force members to conform to a strict no-faith/no-religion policy?

All because of something Gene said that was taken out of context and twisted and burnt made into something it was never meant to be. Peace, acceptance, understanding... unless you are religious then then you can suck photon torpedo. And if you are a fan who happens to disagree with that you are shunned by "the community." A community of fans that worships the holy canon of a show dedicated to peace, acceptance and understanding...

So lets tread carefully with this again, as the fanbase is rabidly anti-religion to the point it is hilarious and sad. It was bad enough with the anti-Bajora religious stuff, not sure if I want to slog through round two.

 

[Tenacity]

Indeed. As an atheist, I feel you should be free to believe as you wish, so long as you:

b) Don't force me or others to believe, and respect my wish to be left alone when it comes to proselytizing.

And the opposite should apply as well. don't push a anti-religious stance on the public, not in the government courts, especially not to children in the school system.

c) Don't muscle in and try to merge church and state. Keep them separate.

And again the opposite. Maintain a state and church separation.

 

[BillJ]

....are so militantly anti-religion that entire fan-groups, forums and discussion groups have imploded over the portrayal of religion and faith in Star Trek.

Because many of us know the damage religion has done to the real world through the centuries.

...especially not to children in the school system.

And what exactly are we supposed to teach children when so many religious folks see science and history as anti-religion?

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[suarezguy]

The Picard in Who Watches the Watchers is really a different person that the Picard who exists through-out all the other episodes in the series, and in the movies.

Even then, though his comments felt too absolutist and disdainful, they were in response to the people quickly adopting a form of religion that would punish or execute non-believers.

Something something Gene said was interpreted as anti-religion and transferred that and interpreted it and twisted it as "The Federation is anti-religion in any form" and that there was no faith or religion in the future in any form and religion was something to be mocked, ridiculed and destroyed.

I thought it was really interesting that in TWoK McCoy both referred to Genesis as myth and thought it showed philosophical wisdom.

 

[BadMoonRising]

Because many of us know the damage religion has done to the real world through the centuries.

Sure and a militant campaign to eradicate all forms of religion and impose your view on those of us who keep to ourselves, worship peaceful and do not lash out at those who have differing opinions. You must be confusing the damage that radical religious fanatics acting in the name of God have done to the world, not the "damage that religion has done." Because honestly I've never "damaged the world" by getting down on my knees and asking my savior for help paying my bills. Nor has my family or anyone in my chruch or any of our friends or anyone in any of the six slightly different but substantially the same churches in town or any of the other members of the other churches in this region.

Now, on the OTHER hand we've weathered multiple arson attacks destroying four churches, we've had our members gunned down, stabbed, robbed, churches robbed and desecrated and our members attacked by militant radical atheists dedicated to eradicating religion and faith in our community.

Even though we personally... have never done anything we have been accused of. Maybe in the distant past our ancestors have... But why punish me, and my congregation for something that we did not do personally. Kind of like how black people who were never slaves are angry at white people who never owned slaves and how those black people demand compensation and pandering.

Makes no sense.

The majority of faithful and religious people want to be left alone to worship in peace. The radical minority who gives the rest of us a bad name, the few who do do the damage you accuse us of... do as you please with them and put the video on Youtube. God finds that shit hilarious, He does not suffer hypocrites gladly.

In the meantime you need to sit down and reevaluate your worldview, before you become what you hate, if it is not already too late. Forcing your views whatever they are on another group is wrong. Religion, morality, politics, Star Trek Canon interpretations, preferred taco filling, does not matter one bit. Forcing a people to renounce religion is just as bad as religious radicals killing people in the name of God.

 

[Tenacity]

And what exactly are we supposed to teach children when so many religious folks see science and history as anti-religion?

First the basics of course, the common language, reading and writing (creative writing), math (including basic business math).

Communication skills, teamwork.
Teach them how their society works on a daily basis.
Health and nutrition.
Debate, logic, skepticism and reasoning skills.
Basic law.
Money management and personal finance.

Might prosper by actively trying to find out why parents have a problem with certain subjects and modifying the leason plans to accomidate.

It should be about educating people, not advancing a school boards personal social agenda to change society.

 

[BillJ]

It should be educationg people, not advancing a school boards personal social agenda.

It should be about facts and truth, not hanging onto people's need for a mystical Daddy figure.

 

[Amaris]

And the opposite should apply as well. don't push a anti-religious stance on the public, not in the government courts, especially not to children in the school system.And again the opposite. Maintain a state and church separation.

Teaching science isn't anti-religion. Creating policy where LGBT students aren't harassed for their orientation or identity isn't anti-religion. Making it so transgender students can go to the bathroom in peace is not anti-religion. Having students observe their faith before or after school instead of during is not anti-religion. That is how the separation of church and state works.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Now, on the OTHER hand we've weathered multiple arson attacks destroying four churches, we've had our members gunned down, stabbed, robbed, churches robbed and desecrated and our members attacked by militant radical atheists dedicated to eradicating religion and faith in our community.

That, and the local militant atheists suffer from selective amnesia in skipping over history's examples of wars, massacres and individual crimes supported by and/or committed by atheists, yet no one suggests eradicating this group--with (often) astoundingly nihilistic views--from the fabric of life. A difference that should be remembered.

In the meantime you need to sit down and reevaluate your worldview, before you become what you hate, if it is not already too late. Forcing your views whatever they are on another group is wrong. Religion, morality, politics, Star Trek Canon interpretations, preferred taco filling, does not matter one bit. Forcing a people to renounce religion is just as bad as religious radicals killing people in the name of God.

Well said.

 

[David.Blue]

I think it a very basic premise that belief or non-belief in a divine being has no inherent impact on the morality of any individual per se. Ditto a society.

 

[The Old Mixer]

First, a reminder to all that discussion of hot-button topics such as religion and politics is usually restricted to Miscellaneous and The Neutral Zone.

I've been willing to leave this thread open given the context in which religion was being discussed. However...

lets tread carefully with this

Good advice concerning the thread in general.

To everyone: The religious people vs. atheists / us vs. them tangent needs to stop now. Give me half an excuse and I'll close this thing.

Kind of like how black people who were never slaves are angry at white people who never owned slaves and how those black people demand compensation and pandering.

And no need to compound matters by bringing in other hot-button topics as examples.

 

[Tenacity]

Having students observe their faith before or after school instead of during is not anti-religion.

Religion isn't something children should be taught they need to switch off for the convenience of others.

And telling Muslim students that they can't pray at noon on school property (somewhere) is anti-religion.

Teaching science isn't anti-religion.

Science classes certainly don't have to be geared toward a anti-religious premise or message.

 

[Amaris]

I think it a very basic premise that belief or non-belief in a divine being has no inherent impact on the morality of any individual per se. Ditto a society.

Indeed. The Mintakans would have been highly intelligent with or without a religion. What Picard wanted to stop was unquestioning zealotry. For me, the alarming part of the episode was how fast the Mintakans took to that belief system.