Hey, I never noticed that before....

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Warped9, Aug 1, 2015.

  1. plynch

    plynch Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    VOY S1 was pretty good, I thought. Still had some Maquis nonintegration dynamics, Seska, etc. They were still really lost and figuring it out. Not quite TNG lite yet.
     
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  2. Vincent van Ghoul

    Vincent van Ghoul Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I caught bits and pieces but I was mostly the same. Too much content on to go with it when characters don't land.
     
  3. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But you're right.
     
  4. Poltargyst

    Poltargyst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Most of the time, of course, it's best to follow the rules, and most of the time Kirk does. It's anarchy otherwise. But it's not good either to blindly follow the rules not taking circumstances into account. When Kirk broke the rules, it's because it was the compassionate thing to do. Lives were in danger, and he needed to act. So in those situations, yes, damn the rules, full speed ahead. But I never saw that as a bad thing. Quite the opposite. It showed Kirk had a heart.

    I don't remember the details, but I vaguely remember this episode early on in TNG where the people on this planet were about to die, and Picard and his senior officers are having a briefing room debate over whether to obey the Prime Directive or save their lives. Kirk would have already solved the problem and saved their lives, damn the Prime Directive. And he would have been right in doing so.
     
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  5. dupersuper

    dupersuper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That would probably be Homeward, or maybe Pen Pals.
     
  6. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The fact that there's more than one episode where Picard nearly lets an entire planet die because of the Prime Directive doesn't speak well of TNG.
     
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  7. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Regarding the idea that the course of events "untouched by us" is always the right one, someone should have asked Gene Roddenberry what was so sacred about that. If we are there on the scene and can stop something terrible from happening, then (as Spock would say in "Assignment: Earth"), surely we were part of what was supposed to happen. The religious would say we were "put there for a reason."

    Extending the Prime Directive to the point where it prevents rescue missions, instead of just protecting societies from exotic capability, seems like a simplistic, knee-jerk way to apply the rule. It suggests we have no right to be out there exploring in the first place, because we're just a contaminant. It's a rule born of self-loathing, and Kirk wasn't having it. He always looked for the most he could do by law, while Picard looked for the least.
     
  8. Laura Cynthia Chambers

    Laura Cynthia Chambers Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I meant that they could do so, not that they always would.
     
  9. Doug Otte

    Doug Otte Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I need to watch Pen Pals again. But I remember Picard raising that point as a rhetorical device, and the other senior staff then debated it. I don't know if Picard intended to use that absolutism as the final decision. As he did many other times, he wanted the entire staff to come up with a reasonable solution.
     
  10. dupersuper

    dupersuper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    He was seconds away from leaving the planet to die. The only thing that saved the entire species was that he had Data cut off communication then and there which meant Data had to isolate the frequency he was using with Picard there and Picard heard the little kid begging for help, growing his artificial heart three sizes...though in Homeward we learn that this was a temporary condition.
     
  11. UssGlenn

    UssGlenn Commodore Commodore

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    Just reminding everyone that the opposite of the prime directive isn't "help those in need" it's "The White Man's Burden".
     
  12. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I just went and read that Kipling poem, and boy does it serve as a dire warning against nation-building adventures.
     
  13. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Data's actions were deeply subversive in that episode - all he had to do was order the computer to un-tag that frequency, certainly no need to bring it up on the screen and broadcast it through the speakers.
    But I think Data knew what he was doing; he's more emotionally manipulative than often given credit for! :devil:
     
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  14. Doug Otte

    Doug Otte Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Thanks for reminding and correcting me! I used to love that episode, but I obviously forgot key details.
     
  15. No Grave Dug

    No Grave Dug Admiral Admiral

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    The interesting thing is: in the TOS area it was even stated that the prime directive wasn't enforced until a survey of the planet had been done.

    In TOS S2 A Private Little War, it was Lieutenant Kirk himself who contacted Tyree, told Tyree exactly who and what he was, swore Tyree to silence, and then wrote a survey report to Starfleet indicating that they should enforce the Prime Directive for this planet.

    In TOS S2 The Omega Glory, Captain Ron Tracy tells Kirk the reason he survived was because he remained behind to arrange for the planet survey with the Village Elders. (and yes it's interesting that Ron Tracy is effectively convicted of violating the prime directive because he used his phaser to defend the Village from a Yang attack); but in practice in the TOS era, the prime directive pretty much only applied if the inhabitants of the planet were unaware that life existed on other worlds, and/or were unaware of space travel.
    ^^^
    If for whatever reason, the inhabitants work primitive but we're aware of life and other worlds or were aware that other beings were able to travel through space; then the prime directive usually didn't apply. (Plus there also seemed to be an exception to application of the prime directive if a planet was in a strategically advantaged location, or had some resource that the Federation needed.)

    In the TNG era the Prime Directive was automatically applied to any non-member world, or any Star Nation that wasn't an ally of the Federation, which was honestly ridiculous because if that were the case how did they make contact or find out if a world might want to become a member of the Federation?:shrug::rommie:

    (And sorry for the thread derailment as I know this is a strictly TOS thread but yeah that was one of my big pet peeves with the TNG era in general, and another reason I really prefer the TOS era over any other era of the Star Trek franchise.)
     
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  16. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    TNG reflected the cautiousness of the Post-Vietnam era of the U.S.
     
  17. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think the issue evolved into whether they were a warp capable species.
     
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  18. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Post-Vietnam is correct, only through the lens of New Agey hacks who wanted Star Trek to mirror their simplistic guiding light that "America / West aka Starfleet = Evil", so any first contact stories were compromised by the self-inflicted belief that they posed a risk to the native culture (hence the kind of TNG stories viewers were subjected to).
     
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  19. dupersuper

    dupersuper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Which I'm fine with as long as they make an exception for pre-warp civilizations that have already had contact with aliens and didn't just stand by if a pre-warp world was about to be completely wiped out by an asteroid or other natural disaster.
     
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  20. Vincent van Ghoul

    Vincent van Ghoul Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's just their fate.