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Hate for the new Trek and the Future of Trek

I don't think there really is a "Hate" for the nuTrek movies. (Well OK I will confess a mild degree of loathing over the newer ship designs and sense of aesthetic over traditional well thought out function. But that's just a matter of personal taste.) The nuTrek stuff is mostly good Trek. Adding action is great. Although there are some fair criticism's, especially with Into Darkness, that they added too much action and too many set pieces without any real solid underlying story. There is a happy medium to be found. You can both tell an engaging thoughtful and deep story and still include plenty of action. Here's hoping Beyond finds a better balance.

As for the rest. People have their favorites. People bicker on the internet. Yes Voyager is often the most maligned. But honestly no it is not because Men didn't like Janeway. It was more that it felt like for much of its run the show had poor editorial or character control over the writers room. Resulting in inconsistent and often contradictory feeling characters, while at the same time the showrunners were so determined to "make it a Star Trek Show" that they only seemed to cycle through a small number of seemingly repetitive stories that were more in line with traditional Trek. They remained trapped in the box of nostalgia and "homage to Gene" and rarely stepped outside to take advantage of the differences that Voyager offered. DS9 faired better as the black sheep of the family. The suits weren't paying so much attention to it, so they had room to be different. To explore more "non traditional Trek" areas, such as War, without anybody giving them any pushback. Enterprise originally suffered horribly from being stuffed in the "box" but eventually they attempted to move away from that and take advantage of what the show offered. (sadly not fast enough). One thing that gives me hope for the new show with Bryan Fuller is he does seem to be a point of balance, based on his track record. Yes he was highly and deeply involved in Voyager, and its traditional Trek "box". But at the same time his credited episodes include a few that are among the most refreshingly different. Such as Bride of Chaotica (As great a use of Janeway as there ever was.)
I can appreciate your survey of Voyager, and find your comments to be similar to my own thoughts. That said, I think that each show gets its own fair share of being maligned, as well as being celebrated as the best (INS actually had comments that it broke the odd number rule).

I will disagree that Abrams Trek isn't hated. It might be on the low end of the cycle, but when it first came out the rhetoric was in the extremes. I recall one thread on another site titled "Abrams should be found guilty of heresy against Star Trek" and listed out their grievances about how Abrams violated everything that Star Trek stood for, and raped Star Trek's past.

I'm sure this is true of other shows and films, and I find it only because I enjoy researching about Abrams Trek, but Abrams is much maligned in some circles and his movies regarded as worst of all. While it may be examples of extremism, no doubt that others can be found as well, I would disagree on the point that Abrams films are not "hated." I think they get their fair share of hyperbolic beatings.
 
They certainly can be made. There is no shibboleth that I adhere to that insists that they shouldn't even exist. But I think that more than building an enduring audience for a new tv show, let's say, that won't have much if any resemblance to the world of the films, all the films do and reflect is the ongoing demand for flashy, effect riddled, noisy action fare that pays lip service to whatever original material it ultimately is derivative of, while presenting putatively thought provoking moments in ways that have scant connection to the substance , spirit, and context that made that material distinctive and memorable. To use the names that are familiar to the older audience is largely irrelevant if there is no genuine continuity, not canon, to a significant extent, of what came before. An abomination no, but it might as well have been simply the initiation of a new series altogether that might have been even more financially successful if totally freed from the nominal tissue of connection to Trek.
 
I can appreciate your survey of Voyager, and find your comments to be similar to my own thoughts. That said, I think that each show gets its own fair share of being maligned, as well as being celebrated as the best (INS actually had comments that it broke the odd number rule).

I will disagree that Abrams Trek isn't hated. It might be on the low end of the cycle, but when it first came out the rhetoric was in the extremes. I recall one thread on another site titled "Abrams should be found guilty of heresy against Star Trek" and listed out their grievances about how Abrams violated everything that Star Trek stood for, and raped Star Trek's past.

I'm sure this is true of other shows and films, and I find it only because I enjoy researching about Abrams Trek, but Abrams is much maligned in some circles and his movies regarded as worst of all. While it may be examples of extremism, no doubt that others can be found as well, I would disagree on the point that Abrams films are not "hated." I think they get their fair share of hyperbolic beatings.
Well, at least Abrams films were better than TNG films, and I can stomach his films more than the 4th - 7th seasons of DS9, and all of Voyager. Abrams made Star Trek fun again, distancing itself from years of continuity and be something other than the stuff from Berman's bowels. It's not the Star Trek I wanted but I feel it's the Star Trek the world deserved, we can all sit back and just watch a movie than have to have a history lesson on tech, and lingo from Trek Encyclopedias and technical manuals which were insidiously done retroactively.
 
In my experience, it strikes me that fans are the most passionate, but also the most critical about change, whether it be in sports, television, or pretty much anything else. Many of the arguments against Abrams Trek have been made against TNG when it first aired, get made every time Dr Who switches Doctors, and every time a sports team switches coaches or players.
Generally, it comes down to, "Oh, these changes are terrible and the loss of [insert anything here] will kill the franchise." Yet, as much as I loved TOS or TNG, they were products of their era and by necessity need to change.
With regard to Abrams films in specific, people seem to have two primary problems. 1. The lack of "message" and 2. The "rehashing" of Wrath of Khan in Into Darkness. For me, at least in the first Abrams film, the message was about the crew learning to become their best possible selves. It just wasn't spelled out and hammered at like the "message" in Nemesis. As far as #2 the film struck me as an interesting "what if" idea that Abrams plays with quite a lot (Aka, the alternate universe in Fringe).
 
They certainly can be made. There is no shibboleth that I adhere to that insists that they shouldn't even exist. But I think that more than building an enduring audience for a new tv show, let's say, that won't have much if any resemblance to the world of the films, all the films do and reflect is the ongoing demand for flashy, effect riddled, noisy action fare that pays lip service to whatever original material it ultimately is derivative of, while presenting putatively thought provoking moments in ways that have scant connection to the substance , spirit, and context that made that material distinctive and memorable. To use the names that are familiar to the older audience is largely irrelevant if there is no genuine continuity, not canon, to a significant extent, of what came before. An abomination no, but it might as well have been simply the initiation of a new series altogether that might have been even more financially successful if totally freed from the nominal tissue of connection to Trek.
Tow points on that. First of all, I don't think Abrams Star Trek misses the substance of TOS era Star Trek, in terms of characters, themes and spirit of the work. ST09, in particular, thrived on the concept of TOS as an "action-adventure with social commentary." It's success was not due to familiarity, but rather telling a twist on a familiar story.

I think that the Abrams films are as thought provoking as any other Star Trek work, and the meaning to be derived from those works is largely dependent upon individual perspective. While not reflective of what came before, my larger enjoyment of Abrams Trek is precisely because I know so much about Star Trek and TOS.
In my experience, it strikes me that fans are the most passionate, but also the most critical about change, whether it be in sports, television, or pretty much anything else. Many of the arguments against Abrams Trek have been made against TNG when it first aired, get made every time Dr Who switches Doctors, and every time a sports team switches coaches or players.
Generally, it comes down to, "Oh, these changes are terrible and the loss of [insert anything here] will kill the franchise." Yet, as much as I loved TOS or TNG, they were products of their era and by necessity need to change.
With regard to Abrams films in specific, people seem to have two primary problems. 1. The lack of "message" and 2. The "rehashing" of Wrath of Khan in Into Darkness. For me, at least in the first Abrams film, the message was about the crew learning to become their best possible selves. It just wasn't spelled out and hammered at like the "message" in Nemesis. As far as #2 the film struck me as an interesting "what if" idea that Abrams plays with quite a lot (Aka, the alternate universe in Fringe).
I agree. Change is not the easiest thing to for any fandom to go through and there is a large level of fear on the part of the production companies because if they change then they might lose an audience. In this day and age, the idea of losing any audience members is rather terrifying.

As for the message, I think ST09 had a more clear message of the crew collaborating, with other messages woven throughout of the importance of father figures (Sarek, Pike) in pushing leaders to reach their full potential. Into Darkness, in my opinion, isn't a rehash of TWOK as the themes and larger story are about terrorism and the lengths people will go to defend against perceived threats, including illegal ones.

In both instances, we see Kirk and Spock facing down dark mirrors of themselves, and what they could potentially become. Which, as you pointed out, plays right in to Abrams' alternative "what if?" scenarios that he explores. I think the messages are there, but, again as stated, not driven home with a sledge like Nemesis.
 
So, basically, there is no such thing as "good" and "bad" when discussing visual media. There are no bad movies or series, it's all just a matter of opinion and we can never say "this sucks." Everything is as good as everything else. That would be about right, yes?

You can say it sucks, but its your opinion. I see people who count Insurrection as their favorite movie and Voyager as their favorite series. I don't think either are very good and can point out the flaws in both, but those are my opinions of the material, not an ironclad objective analysis.

I don't think inflammatory language helps anyone's position.
 
So, basically, there is no such thing as "good" and "bad" when discussing visual media. There are no bad movies or series, it's all just a matter of opinion and we can never say "this sucks." Everything is as good as everything else. That would be about right, yes?

When people judge something as "good" or "bad" solely based on whether it is exactly the same as a bunch of tired TV shows from the 80s through 2000s, rather than on its own merit, then I don't think that's very objective. And that seems to be the gist of many arguments against NuTrek.

Kor
 
The ones I find both most amusing and at the same time sad is the mud flinging between various camps and supporters over the new show that is coming. The fans have not figured out that the rules have completely changed. It will be a (?!) streaming show. This means it is not bound in many of the pptraditional production conventions. It does not need to be an ongoing week to week rush to production. It does not need a fixed cast or as fixed a cast. They can do short series of different styles. Action. Thoughtful scifi. Old. New. Take the Marvel Netflix shows as an example. Shorter series, each a bit different, rather than one long ongoing. Because they are not chasing ratings. They are chasing subscriptions. They have immense flexibility. If the producers realize how the landscape has changed, if they can think outside the box not just in terms of stories but in terms of the show or shows itself than everybody will have something to complain about. But in a good way.
 
^ Good points. I second the notion that they shouldn't be limited by "pptraditional production conventions." ;)

Kor
 
I'm also upset by the hate thrown at Voyager. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like c. 95% of the hate comes from men. Is there a connection? I don't know. I'm a man myself, but consider myself a feminist, and I think Janeway is an great captain.

So, like the OP, I'm venting a bit. I think Trek fans in general should try to see the glasses of the different generations of Trek as more than half full rather than 2/3 empty....
I loved Voyager, and I especially loved Janeway. It was very refreshing to see a female captain and it definitely changed the dynamic of the show, but in a good way. I honestly don't see how people didn't like Voyager!
 
There's good Trek, and there's not so good Trek. I think it's important to realize that simply because the new movies aren't Stewart and Frakes or Shatner and Nimoy, doesn't make them bad movies or any less Trek-ish. Yeahhhh there's a lot of Hollywood and action in the new ones, the writing is a bit lazy, but I still enjoy them as Trek. And as many of you have said before me, at least it's something. And frankly, I don't think there would have ever been a new show without the success of the last two movies. So you can look at it like that! Besides, no matter how negatively the new Trek movies are perceived, I don't know if they'll ever be as lame as The Final Frontier. HA!
 
I honestly don't see how people didn't like Voyager!

My thoughts from another thread...

For me, Voyager just wasn't a very good TV show and wasn't very good "Star Trek". Beltran could've easily been mistaken for cardboard, the writers had Janeway all over the place, they went to the Klingon well yet again (though I thought Dawson did well with the material given), Lien had exactly one interesting episode and it was playing a different character ("Warlord"), Wang was one of People's sexiest people alive but couldn't act.

Duncan McNeil was kinda there, sometimes he got something interesting to do, but most times didn't.

Then you had Russ, Picardo, Ryan who were interesting to a degree, but were also let down by the writing.

Voyager, overall, felt very "paint by numbers". There was little there that interested/surprised me during its seven year run.

tl;dr

I thought Voyager was let down by its writers. Interesting cast and concept, mostly very dull in execution.
 
Well, at least Abrams films were better than TNG films, and I can stomach his films more than the 4th - 7th seasons of DS9, and all of Voyager. Abrams made Star Trek fun again, distancing itself from years of continuity and be something other than the stuff from Berman's bowels. It's not the Star Trek I wanted but I feel it's the Star Trek the world deserved, we can all sit back and just watch a movie than have to have a history lesson on tech, and lingo from Trek Encyclopedias and technical manuals which were insidiously done retroactively.
So you're telling me you'd rather watch Into Darkness than First Contact? I call your bluff.
 
You can say it sucks, but its your opinion. I see people who count Insurrection as their favorite movie and Voyager as their favorite series. I don't think either are very good and can point out the flaws in both, but those are my opinions of the material, not an ironclad objective analysis.

I don't think inflammatory language helps anyone's position.
I don't need any help, my position is dandy. And actually I wasn't pointing to nuTrek with "this sucks," but offering a commonly dispensed opinion about all kinds of drek movies as an example of something we never could say if we adhere to the idea of "well it's just opinion and doesn't really matter as such." Of course opinions matter. There is no "ironclad objective analysis" of art, opinion is all there is, so if we're going to say anything substantive and meaningful about art we have to consider opinions because there is nothing else. When the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences hands out its honors, those are opinions too, but we nevertheless take them seriously.


I compare the new movies to the class of all movies first, the class of all science fiction movies second, and thirdly the class of all Trek, the franchise that the new movies claim to be a part of. I find them wanting on too many levels to write less than several pages about.
 
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One of the reason I like Voyager is (with the exception of Paris) I think I would personally like the main characters if I knew them in real life.

It took me a while to figure it out, but the primary reason I dislike (not hate) DS9 is (with the possible exception of Jake) I can't see myself actively liking a single one of the major characters if I knew them, at best I would be neutral on Ezri.
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I think I would actively like Jadzia. Very actively. :adore:

So you're telling me you'd rather watch Into Darkness than First Contact? I call your bluff.

I would also rather watch ST:ID. I don't like the TNG era.

Kor
 
One of the reason I like Voyager is (with the exception of Paris) I think I would personally like the main characters if I knew them in real life.

It took me a while to figure it out, but the primary reason I dislike (not hate) DS9 is (with the possible exception of Jake) I can't see myself actively liking a single one of the major characters if I knew them, at best I would be neutral on Ezri.
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That's why I liked VOY and TNG so much. I'd really love to go grab a few drinks with Riker and Data down at Ten Forward, or run a fun holo program with Paris and Harry because they're all lovable characters.
 
I think I would actively like Jadzia. Very actively. :adore:



I would also rather watch ST:ID. I don't like the TNG era.

Kor
As an action movie, I loved Into Darkness, I mean I've probably seen it upwards of 15 times, but as a Star Trek movie? Yes, it has the name Star Trek on it, and it has characters named "Kirk" and "Spock", but as a Trek movie, I don't enjoy it too much. And I think it all comes down to writing (and in the case of the new movies, design as well...gosh that new Enterprise is cringe worthy). However, that is simply my opinion, but I believe a valid one nonetheless.
 
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