Counterpoint: yep.
Factually: No.
Spoilers Has Discovery destroyed the possibility of any positive progression until after the 32nd Century?
- Thread starter Timofnine
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Factually: No.
Initially, I wasn't too keen at all on the idea of a Federation that was seemingly smaller and weaker in the 32nd-Century than it was in the 24th-Century. I probably had locked onto a belief that things would continually get better and move from strength to strength. But in hindsight now, I've now grown to like the idea that the Federation had a golden age of expansion and then entered into a period of relatively rapid decline. It wasn't invincible. I think the key thing was that the Federation ultimately survived the decline and is now rebuilding & growing again, IMO.
In the meantime, though, for any Trek series set prior to the Burn and the Federation's decline, the party is still going strong and there is a lot of history that is very much unknown and likely involve things we have yet to hear about. Yes, we know that the party will end at 3 AM and everyone will go back home, but that doesn't mean that a lot of good stuff didn't happen prior to that. Maybe one of the reasons why the Federation didn't completely collapse after the Burn is an untold story of hope & optimism winning out over despair & pessimism.
In the meantime, though, for any Trek series set prior to the Burn and the Federation's decline, the party is still going strong and there is a lot of history that is very much unknown and likely involve things we have yet to hear about. Yes, we know that the party will end at 3 AM and everyone will go back home, but that doesn't mean that a lot of good stuff didn't happen prior to that. Maybe one of the reasons why the Federation didn't completely collapse after the Burn is an untold story of hope & optimism winning out over despair & pessimism.
Looking at the expanded universe from licensed products, alternating eras of golden ages and recessions make sense.
Presumably, the Iconian gateway network and Dyson spheres used by the Federation and its Khitomer Alliance partners will be lost after the 25th century. They don’t make first contact with the Edremaiah, ergo benamite remains a rarity.
What really irks me is that the Federation would not start exploring interstellar space and other nearby galaxies.
Presumably, the Iconian gateway network and Dyson spheres used by the Federation and its Khitomer Alliance partners will be lost after the 25th century. They don’t make first contact with the Edremaiah, ergo benamite remains a rarity.
What really irks me is that the Federation would not start exploring interstellar space and other nearby galaxies.
Going past the Great Barrier has not exactly been, um, great, for crews.
There's an old story by Edmond Hamilton called "The Inn Outside the World" by Edmond Hamilton. In the story select individuals from many eras can meet and interact. One basically just sits there taking it all in. It turns out that he is the last human and finally he ends up saying, "Whatever you do, whatever happens, it all comes down to me."
Yes, the world will end. Yes the human race will go extinct, sooner or later, even if we go to the stars (sorry, JMS). But as someone once said: "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." The story of the rise, the story of the fall, the story of rising again. In the end, the stories are all we have.
Yes, the world will end. Yes the human race will go extinct, sooner or later, even if we go to the stars (sorry, JMS). But as someone once said: "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." The story of the rise, the story of the fall, the story of rising again. In the end, the stories are all we have.
I'd like the UFP to be a constantly growing Polity that lasts the tests of time by using Time Travel to avoid it's largest mistakes and leads to a happy Galactic Society under the UFP.
Next Gen even did a "making peace with the Klingons" episode ("Yesterday's Enterprise") just before STVI came along... telling a "making peace with the Klingons" story hundreds of years before. Fans came to the rescue saying maybe the STVI peace didn't last leading to the YE peace... but that was never the intention.
Of course, now we have social media so if two eras of Trek dare tell the same story again the whole internet will burst into flames.
Of course, now we have social media so if two eras of Trek dare tell the same story again the whole internet will burst into flames.
It's a fictional tv show. all it takes is the writers to decide, next episode, "actually yes, alternate reality" and then it becomes "factually: yep".
Discovery hasn’t destroyed positive progression. But that era (i.e. 26th-31st) is mostly known for the proliferation of time travel and time travellers and using time travel to hide artifacts like the Tox Uthat in the past. Outside of that, it’s a blank slate. Discovery hasn’t explained much about that era. Maybe after PIC ends in S3, they’ll feel more free to talk about it.
Precisely so.
Regardless, this notion that Discovery halts progress in other shows is short sighted. It reminds me of the idea that circulates around that the only intelligent people live right now with our modern technology. As if nothing of interest happened in history.
I mean, really all that DIS has established is that the Federation had a long period of growth and expansion between 2401 and the 31st Century. We know from ENT that the Federation was involved in some really complicated "Temporal Cold Wars," and we know from DIS S3 that those conflicts in the 29th Century were bad enough that eventually time travel was banned. We know the UFP was dealing with depleting dilithium supplies in the 31st Century. And then we know that the Burn happened in about 3069, and that the Federation and the rest of interstellar civilization suffered a devastating blow as a result that took around one hundred twenty years to begin to recover from.
That's... not really a lot. But it does include a lot of possibilities for positive developments between 2401 (PIC S2) and 3069. Right off the bat, I'd say there are opportunities for depicting how a lasting peace with the Romulans was earned and how the Romulans chose to reunify with the Vulcans; how the Ferengi abandoned capitalism alongside misogyny; how the Cardassians and Bajorans finally reconciled; how Bajor and Cardassia presumably joined the Federation; how Cardassia and Qo'noS could have finally embraced democracy; how the Klingons and Xindi joined the Federation; stories about establishing regular contact with the Delta Quadrant (Prodigy is implicitly doing that already); stories about peacekeeping missions in former Borg space; stories about building peace with the new Jurati Borg; stories about the Federation building on Voyager's work to establish relationships with Delta Quadrant powers like the Viidians, the Devore, the Kazon, the Hirogen, the Hierarchy, the Malon, the Talaxians, the Ocampa, the Brunali, the B'omar, Drayans, the Kobali, the Krenim; stories about exploring the Gamma Quadrant again, developing relationships with the Karemma, the Teplans, the Hunters and Tosk, the Dosi; stories about exploring how Odo's reforms might have changed the Dominion and the Great Link; stories about the Federation's relationship with powers like the Talarians, or the Gorn, or the Tholians, or the Breen, or the Sheliak; etc.
There are lots of possibilities for positive stories involving all of these subjects.
That's... not really a lot. But it does include a lot of possibilities for positive developments between 2401 (PIC S2) and 3069. Right off the bat, I'd say there are opportunities for depicting how a lasting peace with the Romulans was earned and how the Romulans chose to reunify with the Vulcans; how the Ferengi abandoned capitalism alongside misogyny; how the Cardassians and Bajorans finally reconciled; how Bajor and Cardassia presumably joined the Federation; how Cardassia and Qo'noS could have finally embraced democracy; how the Klingons and Xindi joined the Federation; stories about establishing regular contact with the Delta Quadrant (Prodigy is implicitly doing that already); stories about peacekeeping missions in former Borg space; stories about building peace with the new Jurati Borg; stories about the Federation building on Voyager's work to establish relationships with Delta Quadrant powers like the Viidians, the Devore, the Kazon, the Hirogen, the Hierarchy, the Malon, the Talaxians, the Ocampa, the Brunali, the B'omar, Drayans, the Kobali, the Krenim; stories about exploring the Gamma Quadrant again, developing relationships with the Karemma, the Teplans, the Hunters and Tosk, the Dosi; stories about exploring how Odo's reforms might have changed the Dominion and the Great Link; stories about the Federation's relationship with powers like the Talarians, or the Gorn, or the Tholians, or the Breen, or the Sheliak; etc.
There are lots of possibilities for positive stories involving all of these subjects.
Boring Answer: Looks like things were fine from the 25th to 30th Century. The Galaxy hit a major snag in the middle of the 31st Century and now, at the end of the 32nd Century, they're finally digging their way out. If the Federation completely fell, there was no hope of rebuilding it, and it no longer even existed, that would be a different scenario.
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Star Trek Discovery season 4 takes place in the 32nd century and establishes that many major incidents have occurred which have shaped the galaxy in major ways, nearly all in negative and almost post apocalyptical ways. The biggest events of which are the collapse of the Federation, it’s reformation and also the burn.
It’s almost like all progression in the Star Trek universe has been lost, and no matter what happens in any possible future Star Trek series set in the 800 hundred years between the 24th and 32nd century it would all pretty much be for nothing. It’s almost as if the writers have boxed off hundreds of years worth of Star Trek history from any meaningful progression of the timeline which is true to the series original vision.
The burn prevented the use of warp drives for example… does this mean that in the preceding 800 years the Federation never developed transwarp or slipstream drives? Was an alliance never formed with the Borg co-operative which led to peace throughout the quadrants? We don’t hear from the Klingon’s any more either as far as I know…
Unless there is a big reset at the end of Discovery, any Star Trek series created in the era of 24th-32nd century would essentially be a prequel and severely limited in scope and doomed to an apocalyptic reset.
A franchise continuation post 32nd century could work…
Of course it could. I'm surprised that it took nearly four decades to get the franchise this far into the timeline
There was a line in "Return to Tomorrow" (TOS) where Sargon told Kirk that their civilization too survived its own "primitive nuclear age", but they eventually had to deal with a catastrophic crisis that the Federation had yet to face. The Burn fits the bill.
Also, Gene Roddenberry used to give lectures about how societies would fall apart and rebuild. The End didn't have to be The End. Once again, The Burn and recovering from it fits the bill.
Also, Gene Roddenberry used to give lectures about how societies would fall apart and rebuild. The End didn't have to be The End. Once again, The Burn and recovering from it fits the bill.
This reminds me of a healthy way of looking at past relationships.
We don't know that they didn't, though. Perhaps they had started to but due to the crises of the time wars, it all had to end.
Maybe they went all in and political will changed, so there is little to show for it, like the Zheng He treasure fleet.
We know it took the Kelvan's a long time to get to Andromeda, and it does not appear, that DASH drive technology was ever rediscovered until the arrival of Discovery. So if Starfleet did send missions or people fleeing the Burn tried to move to other galaxies to settle them, they might just be getting started. One subject for stories I would to see is the spore drive really put to use by having Discovery or another spore drive operated ship dropping in to check on them.
"Oh hai.. we know it took you 200 yeas to get here. Just checking in to see how things are going"
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