L
LivingDeadGuy
Guest
A+ A really great episode. Only gripe is that I wish Archer demoted Trip for his actions, no movie night for a few weeks, and confined to quarters when not on duty.
Grade "Cogenitor"
- Thread starter T'Bonz
- Start date
I couldn't agree more. The ads were terribly misleading, selling a tragic poignant story as menage-a-trois in space. Those ads really do a disservice, IMHO.
As for the episode itself, I'll just add my "Wow" in with many others here. What a brutal ending. What a great episode.
A
Yes!! While I was watching last night, I made some notes to address when I posted, and Archer's pacing was one of the things that really stood out to me; he did it all through the conversation in the teaser, and it just felt odd, like that was the only way they thought they could get some action into the scene. I'm glad I'm not the only one this seemed forced to.
As for the rest of your post, I completely agree, 8-4-7-2. I guess I was feeling generous, and I'll stand by the B I gave, but I don't see what was "all that" about "Cogenitor," and it certainly didn't come with a bag of chips, either
One of Trek's best, ever? Never.Yeah it was one of ENT's better episodes, but I graded it in general. Compared to other Trek episodes it doesn't really hold up
I guess the producers want to prevent having two actors stand still and just talk to each other. So they they tell him to pace around the room.
However that makes Archer seem somewhat hyperactive and just puts down the scenes. I can't really describe it. It just looks awkward
Why not just have him use his hands more actively? Or alternating speech patterns to reflect his mood. Different camera angles. I'm no expert, but there are other ways to make dialogue heavy scenes less static
I guess the producers want to prevent having two actors stand still and just talk to each other. So they they tell him to pace around the room.
However that makes Archer seem somewhat hyperactive and just puts down the scenes. I can't really describe it. It just looks awkward
Why not just have him use his hands more actively? Or alternating speech patterns to reflect his mood. Different camera angles. I'm no expert, but there are other ways to make dialogue heavy scenes less static
This one got an A+ from me as well. Porthos is back and the characters are growing! And, oh, there were some great visuals!
Some have complained that it was predictable...I thought that somehow the Cogenitor would become "infertile" because of its exposure to the "ancient technology" on the Enterprise.
Some have mentioned that is seems that Archer's speech was troublesome...that he shouldn't be talking or that it was just plain long-winded; that Trip deserved harsher treatment and that Archer's character isn't consistent. Well, gee, folks. Welcome to being human! Remember: Archer and crew are still learning about the consequences of their actions. It seemed to me that the reason Archer was so upset was that he saw himself in Trip's boots from just a few months or a year ago. Archer is learning about HIMSELF by seeing himself reflected in others.
Good job, crew! And, BOY! am I looking forward to REGENERATION and Season III!
Some have complained that it was predictable...I thought that somehow the Cogenitor would become "infertile" because of its exposure to the "ancient technology" on the Enterprise.
Some have mentioned that is seems that Archer's speech was troublesome...that he shouldn't be talking or that it was just plain long-winded; that Trip deserved harsher treatment and that Archer's character isn't consistent. Well, gee, folks. Welcome to being human! Remember: Archer and crew are still learning about the consequences of their actions. It seemed to me that the reason Archer was so upset was that he saw himself in Trip's boots from just a few months or a year ago. Archer is learning about HIMSELF by seeing himself reflected in others.
Good job, crew! And, BOY! am I looking forward to REGENERATION and Season III!
Posted by Ptrope:
Yes!! While I was watching last night, I made some notes to address when I posted, and Archer's pacing was one of the things that really stood out to me; he did it all through the conversation in the teaser, and it just felt odd, like that was the only way they thought they could get some action into the scene. I'm glad I'm not the only one this seemed forced to.
As for the rest of your post, I completely agree, 8-4-7-2. I guess I was feeling generous, and I'll stand by the B I gave, but I don't see what was "all that" about "Cogenitor," and it certainly didn't come with a bag of chips, either
I definitely do not think that the episode was one Treks best ever. That is definitely a stretch of the imagination.
But, from my point of view. And personally I only gave the episode a B. This episode was definitely a big improvement from the garbage that the Hack Bros. have been giving us all year long and in fact almost all series long. So as far as the quality of the episode goes, it is definitely one of Enterprise's best episodes. (Which given Enterprise's track for crap doesn't mean that much.) It still doesn't change the fact for me at least that this episode demonstrates that Enterprise can be more than it has been when treated better.
i gave the episode an A. maybe this is a response, as someone put it, to the mediocre material that has been palmed off on us for the last few years as Star Trek, but, overall, it felt like Trek and included echoes of great literature and common mythology.
i did not give the episode an A+ because the suicide was predictable, although quite necessary. i could "see it coming" as others have put it, but like John the Savage in Brave New World the sacrifice of the self when denied true freedom (although John’s case is a bit more complicated) is a necessary demonstration for the reader/audience to understand the necessity of freedom to the human spirit.
i was also a bit disappointed at the B stories, particularly the one involving Reed. this story was not brought to conclusion and the audience was just left hanging – did our awkward Reed finally get to really explore some new worlds, or what? and, what were the consequences of this coupling? could they “do it”, considering the presence of the third sex in that species? enquiring minds want to know!
i loved the emotional roller coaster that Archer went through in the end. his duty to his friend, his duty to Starfleet, and his duty to his own convictions all met in a slow motion train wreck. what is a man to do when these things all come into conflict? i enjoyed his speech in the end and did not find it any less “preachy” then some of the speeches that we have encountered in past incarnations of Trek. there was real emotion there and it will be interesting to see if our “friends” B&B have what it takes to show the damage that this incident has caused to Archer and Trip’s long standing personal and professional relationship in subsequent stories.
finally, to the star of the show, the venerable Trip. i was fascinated at how he at once embodied the “wide-eyed innocent” that was doing what his heart told him was right, and the serpent in the garden that offers the forbidden fruit of knowledge that ultimately leads to the cogenitor’s destruction. was his motivation pure goodness or an act of hubris, or possibly both? i loved the fact that The Day the Earth Stood Still was the film that Trip chose to show “Charles”. very interesting. were we to see Trip as Klaatu, offering knowledge to a population unwilling or not prepared to accept? i will be chewing on this one for a while.
Enterprise has really finally stood up to the plate. it has been a program that so far has missed many opportunities, squandered brilliant actors, and fallen too often into the rut that was set up by Voyager. let's hope that this episode is the beginning of a new era, a TNG-like rise to greatness, and not just the final dying throes of a once brilliant star (the Star Trek franchise) fading into oblivion.
i did not give the episode an A+ because the suicide was predictable, although quite necessary. i could "see it coming" as others have put it, but like John the Savage in Brave New World the sacrifice of the self when denied true freedom (although John’s case is a bit more complicated) is a necessary demonstration for the reader/audience to understand the necessity of freedom to the human spirit.
i was also a bit disappointed at the B stories, particularly the one involving Reed. this story was not brought to conclusion and the audience was just left hanging – did our awkward Reed finally get to really explore some new worlds, or what? and, what were the consequences of this coupling? could they “do it”, considering the presence of the third sex in that species? enquiring minds want to know!
i loved the emotional roller coaster that Archer went through in the end. his duty to his friend, his duty to Starfleet, and his duty to his own convictions all met in a slow motion train wreck. what is a man to do when these things all come into conflict? i enjoyed his speech in the end and did not find it any less “preachy” then some of the speeches that we have encountered in past incarnations of Trek. there was real emotion there and it will be interesting to see if our “friends” B&B have what it takes to show the damage that this incident has caused to Archer and Trip’s long standing personal and professional relationship in subsequent stories.
finally, to the star of the show, the venerable Trip. i was fascinated at how he at once embodied the “wide-eyed innocent” that was doing what his heart told him was right, and the serpent in the garden that offers the forbidden fruit of knowledge that ultimately leads to the cogenitor’s destruction. was his motivation pure goodness or an act of hubris, or possibly both? i loved the fact that The Day the Earth Stood Still was the film that Trip chose to show “Charles”. very interesting. were we to see Trip as Klaatu, offering knowledge to a population unwilling or not prepared to accept? i will be chewing on this one for a while.
Enterprise has really finally stood up to the plate. it has been a program that so far has missed many opportunities, squandered brilliant actors, and fallen too often into the rut that was set up by Voyager. let's hope that this episode is the beginning of a new era, a TNG-like rise to greatness, and not just the final dying throes of a once brilliant star (the Star Trek franchise) fading into oblivion.
G
Guest
Guest
I gave it a C and I thinkg that was being kind. You could see the ending coming from a mile off. I almost turned off the TV a number of times. There was only one way that episode could end. I am just glad the writers had the guts to follow it through its natural conclusion.
I couldn't believe that a person who had been in space for almost 2 years, and dealt with a number of other species would act the way Trip did. His actions were cruel and self-serving.
If I had been Archer I'd have busted him down to crewman!
I couldn't believe that a person who had been in space for almost 2 years, and dealt with a number of other species would act the way Trip did. His actions were cruel and self-serving.
If I had been Archer I'd have busted him down to crewman!
BTW, did anyone else note the new conference room set?
Secondly, yeah Trip's motivations might have been more clearly stated, but I think it was the "common human decency" thing getting to him. Since there's no Prime Directive, whose even to say they try to teach them anything like that at the Academy?
Secondly, yeah Trip's motivations might have been more clearly stated, but I think it was the "common human decency" thing getting to him. Since there's no Prime Directive, whose even to say they try to teach them anything like that at the Academy?
B
This is the second episode in a row that I thought was going to suck based on the traliers and ended up enjoying.
That said, I found Trip's character to be a little unbelievable. I think that Trip really wouldn't have interfered, or at least to the extent that he did. There's no motivation for him to be such a "concerned citizen" anywhere that I've seen in his character prior. When he was in the alien's engineering secion, looking at technology that was lightyears ahead of his own all he could talk about was them having sex? Even the prospect of "Hey this could be modified to work on Enterprise" didn't snap him out of it. I think Hoshi would have been a much better and believable choice for this role. She seems to have more of the compassion required and would be in a better position to help someone become literate.
I too didn't get the impression that Archer realized that he had acted in the same way before when I first watched it. I thought "wow, this is pretty bold of B&B to try to ram this dialog down my throat." Then after thinking about it some more, I realized that yes, there was a little kernel of thought going through Archer's mind about "hey, maybe I have led a bad example." I think that's the real reason behind his angst at the end. Trip's line "it's not your fault" sort of seals the deal for me.
I also noticed that the controls of the pod were out of the delta flyer. For such an advanced race, why would you use knobs and levers that look like they're out of a 1930 Ford? Paris did because he was nostalgic. The prop department did because they were there, I guess. It also looks like they reused the Voyager warp core effect on the aliens warp drive.
It didn't make sense that after 1000 years of development of their warp drive that this alien species doesn't go "far from home." I would have prefered the alien captain to sort of say something like "well, there's not much interesting stuff out by you, so we never really went there. Sorry." I can't see them becoming a close ally of the Federation, since they seem to have VOY era technology, at least with their warp design. Who knows, maybe they're only at TOS-era tech.
I would like to see this species again, or see the repercussions of Trips actions play out on relations with them in the future.
It was a welcome change from the usual shoot-em-up or dog-pisses-on-tree diplomatic mission. Decent writing, although they should have used a different character. The acting was good as well, although Archers speech at the end felt a little forced. T'Pol's reprimand was much more powerful to me than Archers.
That's my $0.02.
(I don't have high hopes for the next episode, so maybe it will turn out good as well!)
This is the second episode in a row that I thought was going to suck based on the traliers and ended up enjoying.
That said, I found Trip's character to be a little unbelievable. I think that Trip really wouldn't have interfered, or at least to the extent that he did. There's no motivation for him to be such a "concerned citizen" anywhere that I've seen in his character prior. When he was in the alien's engineering secion, looking at technology that was lightyears ahead of his own all he could talk about was them having sex? Even the prospect of "Hey this could be modified to work on Enterprise" didn't snap him out of it. I think Hoshi would have been a much better and believable choice for this role. She seems to have more of the compassion required and would be in a better position to help someone become literate.
I too didn't get the impression that Archer realized that he had acted in the same way before when I first watched it. I thought "wow, this is pretty bold of B&B to try to ram this dialog down my throat." Then after thinking about it some more, I realized that yes, there was a little kernel of thought going through Archer's mind about "hey, maybe I have led a bad example." I think that's the real reason behind his angst at the end. Trip's line "it's not your fault" sort of seals the deal for me.
I also noticed that the controls of the pod were out of the delta flyer. For such an advanced race, why would you use knobs and levers that look like they're out of a 1930 Ford? Paris did because he was nostalgic. The prop department did because they were there, I guess. It also looks like they reused the Voyager warp core effect on the aliens warp drive.
It didn't make sense that after 1000 years of development of their warp drive that this alien species doesn't go "far from home." I would have prefered the alien captain to sort of say something like "well, there's not much interesting stuff out by you, so we never really went there. Sorry." I can't see them becoming a close ally of the Federation, since they seem to have VOY era technology, at least with their warp design. Who knows, maybe they're only at TOS-era tech.
I would like to see this species again, or see the repercussions of Trips actions play out on relations with them in the future.
It was a welcome change from the usual shoot-em-up or dog-pisses-on-tree diplomatic mission. Decent writing, although they should have used a different character. The acting was good as well, although Archers speech at the end felt a little forced. T'Pol's reprimand was much more powerful to me than Archers.
That's my $0.02.
(I don't have high hopes for the next episode, so maybe it will turn out good as well!)
G
Guest
Guest
I was surprised to see that Trip was not the wonder boy we have been lead to believe. He was actually stupid in his interferrence with the Cogenitor in last nights episode. He should have been demoted and sent to distribute the the TP.
I'm giving this one a B. I really liked the episode, it was more ambitious than most so far, but there were a few things that bug me.
Trip obviously knew he was doing something wrong, or he wouldn't have been sneaking around. His punishment should have been more severe than a dressing down.
What happened with Reed? (Seriously, if they didn't intend to wrap that thread up, why did they include it at all?)
Archer, I think, was as much to blame for the death of the cogenitor as Trip. He knew the cogenitor had been 'damaged'. He could see the members of it's own species were unprepared to deal with it's new demands. Therefore, it was his responsibility to at least try to make that cogenitor a 'special' case. (Humans caused the damage. Humans should have taken active responsibility for the new 'intellect' they produced. I hope that's what he was thinking while he stared out the window).
-M
Trip obviously knew he was doing something wrong, or he wouldn't have been sneaking around. His punishment should have been more severe than a dressing down.
What happened with Reed? (Seriously, if they didn't intend to wrap that thread up, why did they include it at all?)
Archer, I think, was as much to blame for the death of the cogenitor as Trip. He knew the cogenitor had been 'damaged'. He could see the members of it's own species were unprepared to deal with it's new demands. Therefore, it was his responsibility to at least try to make that cogenitor a 'special' case. (Humans caused the damage. Humans should have taken active responsibility for the new 'intellect' they produced. I hope that's what he was thinking while he stared out the window).
-M
I'll give this one an A. From Berman and Braga, no less! 
I was impressed by the way that this episode led me around by the nose a little. In the beginning, I was with Phlox and T'Pol - Trip's curiosity and judgement seemed unseemly. What right did he have to interfere in the affair of another species?
But then I realized what a trap that philosophy can be. Do all sentient beings have certain universal rights? If so, then Trip wasn't behaving incorrectly; he was correcting an injustice. About halfway through the episode, I realized that by agreeing with Phlox, T'Pol, and Archer, I was committing the same sin as the Americans back in the 1800s who thought that teaching African-Americans to read was a high crime.
Of course, interference leads to its own complications, as this episode quite rightly pointed out. There are some interesting parallels with the current intervention in Iraq, which was partly carried out in the name of universal human rights, at least according to the propaganda.
At any rate, it's an episode that nicely foreshadows the coming Prime Directive, and it does so far more effectively than even the excellent "Dear Doctor" of last season. Kudos to the producers.
I was impressed by the way that this episode led me around by the nose a little. In the beginning, I was with Phlox and T'Pol - Trip's curiosity and judgement seemed unseemly. What right did he have to interfere in the affair of another species?
But then I realized what a trap that philosophy can be. Do all sentient beings have certain universal rights? If so, then Trip wasn't behaving incorrectly; he was correcting an injustice. About halfway through the episode, I realized that by agreeing with Phlox, T'Pol, and Archer, I was committing the same sin as the Americans back in the 1800s who thought that teaching African-Americans to read was a high crime.
Of course, interference leads to its own complications, as this episode quite rightly pointed out. There are some interesting parallels with the current intervention in Iraq, which was partly carried out in the name of universal human rights, at least according to the propaganda.
At any rate, it's an episode that nicely foreshadows the coming Prime Directive, and it does so far more effectively than even the excellent "Dear Doctor" of last season. Kudos to the producers.
Am I allowed to gloat, now that everyone is in love with "Cogenitor"?
Told you it wouldn't be the travesty that some made it out to be... I'm always happy when we get a good episode.
-Shimmer-
Told you it wouldn't be the travesty that some made it out to be... I'm always happy when we get a good episode.
-Shimmer-
I voted B- for predicability but to be honest it is simply the best episode for the new show yet.
i was even left to wonder if the friendship between the two men had taken a hit....
Nicely handled and may I say about time.
Bracing myself though for next week...the borg <groan>
"MY GOD!!! SHIELDS....SHIELDS!!!"
i was even left to wonder if the friendship between the two men had taken a hit....
Nicely handled and may I say about time.
Bracing myself though for next week...the borg <groan>
"MY GOD!!! SHIELDS....SHIELDS!!!"
I rated this a "C" before glancing at the thread... and am stunned that most seem to think it a superlative effort.
I appreciated the sci-fi concept of three-gender reproduction. I enjoyed the fact of an advanced species that was generous, friendly... and completely without malevolent or even self-serving ulterior motives. I rejoiced to see Andreas Katsulas again.
There are so many problems with the story and characterizations, though, that's it's difficult to take it as intended.
Trip's actions are certainly well within character. It's the character itself that's so unacceptable, nigh-unbelieveable. This story is a reinforcement of the fact that he'd never have gained his position on Enterprise without patronage of some sort. The man doesn't think about consequences, and constantly imposes his shitkicker view on a universe that doesn't conform to his myopic standards. I swear I sometimes think Cooter from The Dukes of Hazzard is running NX-01's engine room.
The species meet and form a fast friendship, which is cool. It's highly unlikely, though, that the two captains would immediately abandon their vessels and crews to go off on a photospheric joyride disguised as a data-gathering expedition. Cautious optimism, anyone? Nah. Let's just leave our personnel to their own devices.
While others have said, "Why doesn't anyone ever listen to T'Pol?" I think another legitimate question is, "Why didn't T'Pol act like a first officer and order Trip to keep his head out of his ass, and his nose out of things that didn't concern him?"
Trip had an absurd amount of time with "Charles" while no one---even the person with whom he was working closely---looked for him.
If he had real concerns over its plight, he should have taken them to his cap-... oh, that's right. Well, then he should have gone to the X-... hmm, shit. And what the hell is the doctor doing enabling him to work himself into a tizzy of righteous indignation? Phlox isn't a moron; he should have known that any evidence would spur Trip into a useless (and, as we saw, tragic) gesture.
For all we know, the Cogenitors once used their uniqueness to become an elite on their world... and it's only this strict control and distribution of them that prevented the species' extinction.
Archer's appalling hypocrisy during the climactic speech to Trip was something that had escaped me while watching... but, now that it's been pointed out, lowers my estimation of the episode even further.
While it has good moments, "Cogenitor" doesn't withstand scrutiny well at all.
I appreciated the sci-fi concept of three-gender reproduction. I enjoyed the fact of an advanced species that was generous, friendly... and completely without malevolent or even self-serving ulterior motives. I rejoiced to see Andreas Katsulas again.
There are so many problems with the story and characterizations, though, that's it's difficult to take it as intended.
Trip's actions are certainly well within character. It's the character itself that's so unacceptable, nigh-unbelieveable. This story is a reinforcement of the fact that he'd never have gained his position on Enterprise without patronage of some sort. The man doesn't think about consequences, and constantly imposes his shitkicker view on a universe that doesn't conform to his myopic standards. I swear I sometimes think Cooter from The Dukes of Hazzard is running NX-01's engine room.
The species meet and form a fast friendship, which is cool. It's highly unlikely, though, that the two captains would immediately abandon their vessels and crews to go off on a photospheric joyride disguised as a data-gathering expedition. Cautious optimism, anyone? Nah. Let's just leave our personnel to their own devices.
While others have said, "Why doesn't anyone ever listen to T'Pol?" I think another legitimate question is, "Why didn't T'Pol act like a first officer and order Trip to keep his head out of his ass, and his nose out of things that didn't concern him?"
Trip had an absurd amount of time with "Charles" while no one---even the person with whom he was working closely---looked for him.
If he had real concerns over its plight, he should have taken them to his cap-... oh, that's right. Well, then he should have gone to the X-... hmm, shit. And what the hell is the doctor doing enabling him to work himself into a tizzy of righteous indignation? Phlox isn't a moron; he should have known that any evidence would spur Trip into a useless (and, as we saw, tragic) gesture.
For all we know, the Cogenitors once used their uniqueness to become an elite on their world... and it's only this strict control and distribution of them that prevented the species' extinction.
Archer's appalling hypocrisy during the climactic speech to Trip was something that had escaped me while watching... but, now that it's been pointed out, lowers my estimation of the episode even further.
While it has good moments, "Cogenitor" doesn't withstand scrutiny well at all.
A-
Still a few rough edges, but overall, some really great storytelling, and you can imagine my surprise, as I fully expected this to be one of the weakest episodes of the second half of the season. And written by Messrs. Berman and Braga, no less. They do this a few more times, and I may have to reassess my opinions. But not 'til then, I think.
No moral certainty here, for once. Trip sticks his nose in where it shouldn't be, applying human values to alien cultures, and it causes problems. Predictable? Perhaps for us, used to the other series. For these characters, though, it's not so clear, and it's completely true to Trip's character, back to "Broken Bow". And in the end, he offered something he couldn't deliver. He tried to impose human values on a culture that didn't share them. It was a story that's still fairly unusual for this series: one that couldn't be told as-is in one of the others.
Even more, it wasn't a cut-and-dried moral issue. There are two questions there, not just one: If what the Vissians were doing is right, by their standards (our own really shouldn't matter here), what business do we have sticking our nose into their culture? and How do we deal with other races which have vastly different mores, even ones we might find highly objectionable? Where is the line between diversity and unacceptable behavior?
I also agree with the praise for the dressing-down speech. Sure, it sounded a bit hollow from Archer, considering as he's made the same mistake a few times. And I agree, he sounded as much angry at himself, for setting a bad example, as he did with Trip, for following it. This gives both characters not only a point of conflict, but a point of potential growth.
This wasn't an "easy" story. It asked more questions--real, substantial questions--than it answered. It challenged the characters and the audience. It did what Star Trek should do. If only this were what they delivered every week...
Best,
Alex
Still a few rough edges, but overall, some really great storytelling, and you can imagine my surprise, as I fully expected this to be one of the weakest episodes of the second half of the season. And written by Messrs. Berman and Braga, no less.
They do this a few more times, and I may have to reassess my opinions. But not 'til then, I think. No moral certainty here, for once. Trip sticks his nose in where it shouldn't be, applying human values to alien cultures, and it causes problems. Predictable? Perhaps for us, used to the other series. For these characters, though, it's not so clear, and it's completely true to Trip's character, back to "Broken Bow". And in the end, he offered something he couldn't deliver. He tried to impose human values on a culture that didn't share them. It was a story that's still fairly unusual for this series: one that couldn't be told as-is in one of the others.
Even more, it wasn't a cut-and-dried moral issue. There are two questions there, not just one: If what the Vissians were doing is right, by their standards (our own really shouldn't matter here), what business do we have sticking our nose into their culture? and How do we deal with other races which have vastly different mores, even ones we might find highly objectionable? Where is the line between diversity and unacceptable behavior?
I also agree with the praise for the dressing-down speech. Sure, it sounded a bit hollow from Archer, considering as he's made the same mistake a few times. And I agree, he sounded as much angry at himself, for setting a bad example, as he did with Trip, for following it. This gives both characters not only a point of conflict, but a point of potential growth.
This wasn't an "easy" story. It asked more questions--real, substantial questions--than it answered. It challenged the characters and the audience. It did what Star Trek should do. If only this were what they delivered every week...
Best,
Alex
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