Grade "Cogenitor"
- Thread starter T'Bonz
- Start date
C+
Could've been better, could've been worse. The promo was very misleading... I was expecting ANIS part 2, but was actually somewhat surprised. The Archer storyline was nothing more than a Special FX extravaganza. And the Trip storyline was reminiscent of TNG'S "Outcast" with a twist. The episode had a good moral dilemma with no "easy" ending... but Archer's heavy-handed and hypocritical speach at the end nearly killed it. Trip deserved to be chewed out, but Archer's "I guess I haven't set a good example" crap was laughable.
Could've been better, could've been worse. The promo was very misleading... I was expecting ANIS part 2, but was actually somewhat surprised. The Archer storyline was nothing more than a Special FX extravaganza. And the Trip storyline was reminiscent of TNG'S "Outcast" with a twist. The episode had a good moral dilemma with no "easy" ending... but Archer's heavy-handed and hypocritical speach at the end nearly killed it. Trip deserved to be chewed out, but Archer's "I guess I haven't set a good example" crap was laughable.
'D'--and not a fraction more!
Are you guys frigging Serious? Did only me and T'Bonz see the Same episode???
This episode was putting me to sleep! It was sluggish as a dead tribble! The dialogue/characters were Wooden! The plot was nothing new and quite predictable! (Uh, what episodes have we seen before where the outcast commits suicide at the end? This goes all the way back to that early TNG Romulan defector episode and was carried forwards to Voyager)... It was like "The Outcast" all over again, but grossly simplified and in slow motion... Trip gives us yet another 20th Century movie (wow, where'd we hear/see That before?)... They even re-used the yellow light bulbs from Generations in the early scenes... Perhaps the only positive thing to say about "Cogenitor" was that E meets friendly aliens (and not too surprisingly we haven't seen them again over the course of 200 years, despite these guys having developed warp drive nearly 1,000 years ago!)...
This thing was BORING, making ANUS a better episode by comparison... Hell, Voyager at its Worst is looking Good!
Are you guys frigging Serious? Did only me and T'Bonz see the Same episode???
This episode was putting me to sleep! It was sluggish as a dead tribble! The dialogue/characters were Wooden! The plot was nothing new and quite predictable! (Uh, what episodes have we seen before where the outcast commits suicide at the end? This goes all the way back to that early TNG Romulan defector episode and was carried forwards to Voyager)... It was like "The Outcast" all over again, but grossly simplified and in slow motion... Trip gives us yet another 20th Century movie (wow, where'd we hear/see That before?)... They even re-used the yellow light bulbs from Generations in the early scenes... Perhaps the only positive thing to say about "Cogenitor" was that E meets friendly aliens (and not too surprisingly we haven't seen them again over the course of 200 years, despite these guys having developed warp drive nearly 1,000 years ago!)...
This thing was BORING, making ANUS a better episode by comparison... Hell, Voyager at its Worst is looking Good!
I gave it an A.
I liked the episode from the beginning, when I heard Andreas Katsulas's (sp) voice over the comm. The sub plot was nice, and I liked how trip went to the two people on the ship who actually had experience dealing with other races and their cultures directly, Phlox and T'Pol. The suicide at the end caught me for a loop, as I thought that Archer would have gone the route of the goody-goody and helped the poor little cogenitor, like the random refugees from the recent Klingon episode. Its suicide also reminded me of a first season B5 episode with Franklin, however I am unable to remember the name of it. Good stuff all around.
I liked the episode from the beginning, when I heard Andreas Katsulas's (sp) voice over the comm. The sub plot was nice, and I liked how trip went to the two people on the ship who actually had experience dealing with other races and their cultures directly, Phlox and T'Pol. The suicide at the end caught me for a loop, as I thought that Archer would have gone the route of the goody-goody and helped the poor little cogenitor, like the random refugees from the recent Klingon episode. Its suicide also reminded me of a first season B5 episode with Franklin, however I am unable to remember the name of it. Good stuff all around.
^^^ James Dixon, I've been as critical of ENT as anyone, but I was very surprised by this episode. An episode that seems slow and boring to you, is an episode that takes its time to tell the story properly to me. I'd rather have 10 "Cogenitor" style stories than one action-shoot-em-up plot that is resolved with a contrived, hacked-to-bits 10-second ending!
I found the first three quarters a bit difficult and heavy-handed, but the final fifteen or so minutes were intriguing enough to have me round up to a B-.
The moral dilemma of what Archer can and should do given the situation that Tripp has created was intriguing enough, as was his reaction. Of course, if this were DS9, there would be some fall-out in the Tripp/Archer friendship but since it's Enterprise where "we don't need to steenkin' continuity" we'll never see any of it.
The other thing that got me was Archer's reaction to Tripp and what he'd done. Archer doesn't have that captainly anger that Kirk, Picard or Sisko would. So, that took a lot of the wind out of the sails as well.
The moral dilemma of what Archer can and should do given the situation that Tripp has created was intriguing enough, as was his reaction. Of course, if this were DS9, there would be some fall-out in the Tripp/Archer friendship but since it's Enterprise where "we don't need to steenkin' continuity" we'll never see any of it.
The other thing that got me was Archer's reaction to Tripp and what he'd done. Archer doesn't have that captainly anger that Kirk, Picard or Sisko would. So, that took a lot of the wind out of the sails as well.
I have to agree...though I'm not sure what kind of punishment would necessarily fit the "crime" that Tripp committed. Would a demotion be in order? Restriction of duties? Or possibly cutting Tripp off from his beloved movies? Sure, the entire idea that Tripp is going to suffer internally because his actions lead to the Coginitor taking its life...but I still think that from a disciple stand-point there has to be something. Even if Archer stated there would be a mark on Tripp's officer record, that might work. After all, even Picard did that to Worf in Sins of the Father.
But, the worst part is--this will all be forgotten next week....
A- The best part of this one was the ending. I have to admit I am suprised that Trip and Archer's friendship has been comprised. I just hope we see the effects next week. Don't get me wrong I love Archer and Trip's friendship but this could be good for Enterprise.
How many Trek episodes have you seen? Less than half-way through this episode, a blind man could've seen what was coming... Trip was breaking the (as yet undefined) Prime Directive... It was "The Outcast" all over again, but with Most of the dialogue in this episode wasted on a tour of the alien ship's technobabble reactor system (which like all Okuda Era engines is still almost exactly the same on 1701-D and all Enterprises)... Archer is wasted in a shuttle ride (which painfully reminded me of Susan Wright's novel "The Tempest")... Before the final 10 minutes or so the characters were just going through the motions with throwaway lines... I don't know why the ending was such a surprise to everyone here... We saw this stuff already! We saw a Romulan commit suicide, we saw a Q commit suicide, we saw other aliens commit suicide... It's the usual fast-ending gimmick, except it's not quite as abrubt as what we've been conditioned to with V and E! Take a look at this thing, it's Nothing New from start to finish... "The Breach" and "Horizon" are better episodes...
TOS eps at their worst are better than this dog...
G
Guest
Guest
I'd give it a B+.
My issues:
1. Why did they bring the co-genitor aboard Enterprise in the first place? I can see no good "make-up-your-own" explanation for this.
2. Archer's speech at the end was too heavy handed, especially considering that Archer is Mr. Interference himself. Say what you will about Archer's past decisions but Archer would have done exactly what Trip did. The suicide at the end speaks for itself. We didn't need Archer's sermon.
3. This episode felt really preachy in the same way that TNG always felt really preachy. I don't want a 22nd century version of TNG. I want ENT, the Trek where people think they know what they're doing and occasionally get things right but screw up most of the time and then get mad at each other over who screwed up worse.
My issues:
1. Why did they bring the co-genitor aboard Enterprise in the first place? I can see no good "make-up-your-own" explanation for this.
2. Archer's speech at the end was too heavy handed, especially considering that Archer is Mr. Interference himself. Say what you will about Archer's past decisions but Archer would have done exactly what Trip did. The suicide at the end speaks for itself. We didn't need Archer's sermon.
3. This episode felt really preachy in the same way that TNG always felt really preachy. I don't want a 22nd century version of TNG. I want ENT, the Trek where people think they know what they're doing and occasionally get things right but screw up most of the time and then get mad at each other over who screwed up worse.
Ummm, that's exactly Trip's reasoning behind his actions...
A for me. Tempted to give it a "+" as well. Never saw the ending coming and whoever said they did, I don't buy it. What I loved about the ep was that not everything was shown to us. We didn't have to see Trip get busted before T'Pol scolds him. We didn't have to see Archer break the news to the congenitor. It was all understood after the fact. It was done in a way that made this ep unique and a joy to watch. What an ending! Trip is DIRECTLY responsible for someone's death. How will this affect him in the future? What will become of his and Archer's close relationship?
Bring on the Borg! Season 2 rocks!
Great drama - good guest actors. BUT...
Archer gives a "Janeway Speech" that is supposed to pass this episode off as great conflict. It isn't. (I call a Janeway speech, a lecture from the captain RIPPING a crew member for something that would have likely been praised in any other episode)
I totally agree with Trip's actions - and so does every basic Trek philosophy from Kirk to Picard. Sometimes it's the RIGHT thing to encourage change in alien races. Trip didn't FORCE it like Janeway did, tho - he just planted a seed that grew beautifully on it's own. The facts were on his side and the aliens race was blind to their own "racism".
This really just sounds like a liberal view of Iraqis. They don't deserve freedom because they can't understand it.
This same plot will appear in a future episode and it will be the Captain or T'Pol who challenges the status-quo... and the ending will be written to praise their brave actions.
Grade A for the main points... but an "F" for the Janeway ending.
Archer gives a "Janeway Speech" that is supposed to pass this episode off as great conflict. It isn't. (I call a Janeway speech, a lecture from the captain RIPPING a crew member for something that would have likely been praised in any other episode)
I totally agree with Trip's actions - and so does every basic Trek philosophy from Kirk to Picard. Sometimes it's the RIGHT thing to encourage change in alien races. Trip didn't FORCE it like Janeway did, tho - he just planted a seed that grew beautifully on it's own. The facts were on his side and the aliens race was blind to their own "racism".
This really just sounds like a liberal view of Iraqis. They don't deserve freedom because they can't understand it.
This same plot will appear in a future episode and it will be the Captain or T'Pol who challenges the status-quo... and the ending will be written to praise their brave actions.
Grade A for the main points... but an "F" for the Janeway ending.
Which was one of the best parts about this episode -- Archer WAS being a hypocrite. That's what makes him a hell of a lot more interesting than the average infallible Starfleet captain who can't see that he's as much a screw-up as his crew.
Wonderful stuff.
What I have cottoned to since day one is Archer is SUPPOSED to be a guy who is in over his head. People call him an incompetant captain. Well, if he is, he isn't the first. And he is being written this way on purpose. It's pretty transparent to me.
Cheers!
Alex
C+
Wow, I must say I'm surprised, I was expecting this one to get raked over the coals MUCH more than it has. This one was meddling in the D range until that last scene pulled it WAY up. I was not expecting serious consequences, and that Trip/Archer discussion was great.
There was just too much that made me, I dunno, impatient during the first 90% of the show. The fact that it had a great payoff couldn't excuse the rest. The entire Reed subplot was good for a chuckle, but was abandoned after the "let's sleep together" line.
I thought it was pretty funny when Trip first taught "it" to read, thinking "What good is learning to read English going to do her?"
The Day The Earth Stood Still was a great choice of film to show her, and was a very nice nod to Trek alum Bob Wise. It was refreshing to see friendly aliens for once. Otherwise, the whole show (again, except for the last scene) just felt rather unpleasant to me.
I will have to revisit this one this summer though, you all are making me feel like I must've been in the wrong mood to watch it tonight for some reason. I'm optimistic that it will improve with repeated viewings.
Wow, I must say I'm surprised, I was expecting this one to get raked over the coals MUCH more than it has. This one was meddling in the D range until that last scene pulled it WAY up. I was not expecting serious consequences, and that Trip/Archer discussion was great.
There was just too much that made me, I dunno, impatient during the first 90% of the show. The fact that it had a great payoff couldn't excuse the rest. The entire Reed subplot was good for a chuckle, but was abandoned after the "let's sleep together" line.
I thought it was pretty funny when Trip first taught "it" to read, thinking "What good is learning to read English going to do her?"
The Day The Earth Stood Still was a great choice of film to show her, and was a very nice nod to Trek alum Bob Wise. It was refreshing to see friendly aliens for once. Otherwise, the whole show (again, except for the last scene) just felt rather unpleasant to me.
I will have to revisit this one this summer though, you all are making me feel like I must've been in the wrong mood to watch it tonight for some reason. I'm optimistic that it will improve with repeated viewings.
It would seem so. You two must have watched something different from the rest of us, cuz we all saw an awesome ep that some are calling the best ENT has offered to date. Kidding aside, you are in the minority it would appear. Who knows, maybe you'll watch it again and love it and I'll hate it in re-runs...
For your information, Mr. Dixon, I have seen EVERY LAST MINUTE of Star Trek minus the 2 or three ENT eps I've missed this season.
And I did see the similarities between this episode and "The Outcast," but it was the new environment and the treatment of the characters that made this episode truly unique. "The Outcast" was a romance/social commentary where the outcast was seeking change herself by seeking a gender identity in an asexual environment. "Cogenitor" was about Trip forcing his ideals on a cogenitor who was for all intents & purposes content with the status quo. Vaguely similar situation, but circumstances, actions, characters & resolutions all different.
As for calling this ep's ending a rip of "Defector," I don't think that comparison is valid. There we're talking about a Romulan patriot fighting for the lives of his family and continued peace between two superpowers only to find out he was set up and betrayed by his own government and unable to see his home ever again. Sure, he killed himself but the circumstances were COMPLETELY different than "The Cogenitor" where she was exposed to knowledge against her will and after being refused the life she wasn't even supposed to know about, she killed herself.
Granted, I have no idea why these cogenitors aren't treated like royalty for their rare value to society (that would be the only flaw of this episode), but as a person that has been very hard to please ever since "EndShame," I was suprisingly pleased by "Cogenitor."
And I did see the similarities between this episode and "The Outcast," but it was the new environment and the treatment of the characters that made this episode truly unique. "The Outcast" was a romance/social commentary where the outcast was seeking change herself by seeking a gender identity in an asexual environment. "Cogenitor" was about Trip forcing his ideals on a cogenitor who was for all intents & purposes content with the status quo. Vaguely similar situation, but circumstances, actions, characters & resolutions all different.
As for calling this ep's ending a rip of "Defector," I don't think that comparison is valid. There we're talking about a Romulan patriot fighting for the lives of his family and continued peace between two superpowers only to find out he was set up and betrayed by his own government and unable to see his home ever again. Sure, he killed himself but the circumstances were COMPLETELY different than "The Cogenitor" where she was exposed to knowledge against her will and after being refused the life she wasn't even supposed to know about, she killed herself.
Granted, I have no idea why these cogenitors aren't treated like royalty for their rare value to society (that would be the only flaw of this episode), but as a person that has been very hard to please ever since "EndShame," I was suprisingly pleased by "Cogenitor."
I gave "Cogenitor" a B, and while that's cemented in the poll, I may yet reconsider it; I might have to review the episode.
It felt somewhat like a TNG episode, as one thread out there suggests, but I'm not certain that's a good thing. It felt too much like a TNG episode, "The Outcast" in particular, with a great helping of "Tosk" thrown in from DS9, as well. And, yes, there are a limited number of stories that can be told, but there is a virtually limitless manner in which they can be told, so why do we get so many stories in ENT that are so directly traceable to their progenitors? (Like how I managed to slip that in there?)
What did I like, you ask?
What didn't I like? Two things:
Trip ... and Archer.
If Trip wants to have feelings of moral outrage, I can understand it in the appropriate context. However, I found myself becoming increasingly irritated by his persistence in the face of something that was clearly outside both his experience and his responsibility. If the situation had been presented in a fashion where the cogenitor was clearly being abused, and Trip's inquisition hadn't been so long-lasting and coy, it would have been more plausible. As it was, it treaded a very uncomfortable line between prurience and violation of rights. All I can say is thank the stars that Trip was severely reprimanded. Oh, and one more thing I liked: T'Pol's interrogation and upbraiding of Trip; that was well-written, if not entirely well-acted, and exactly what she should have done under the circumstances. Again, kudos to B&B.
Archer's sub-plot was rather weak, though. It was nice to see him get along with Capt. Vrennick (? again, I'm going on what I heard, and the site is, again, far short on information for something that supposedly has first-hand access to everything, but apparently no interest in doing its best to utilize and disseminate the info). I realize it was setting up the desire on Vrennick's part to keep the hand of friendship extended, but it really wasn't anything more than an extended buddy-bonding, and not much of a character-developing story.
What really bugged me, besides Trip's negligence and interference, was that they would write Archer as though he had ever established himself as some sort of example of control and restraint. At the very least, he should have said, "Do as I say, Trip, not as I do," because Trip was absolutely right that it was what one could reasonably have expected Archer to do! ENT relies too much and too often upon the writers telling us what the characters should be rather than showing us; first, we were told Archer was a trained diplomat, in the face of all evidence to the contrary, and now we are expected to accept that he is a leader, not by example but by exposition. Sorry, but I don't buy it at all, and that undermines much of the last act of the episode.
And poor Mayweather! Why didn't they just hire a mute for his role, or possibly a turnip? He's the first lead character I've ever seen in a Trek series who, even after two years, remains a prop for the director to use at will and whim.
Okay, I'll stand by my B, if only because the story stacked up favorably against other ENT episodes, but I hardly consider "Cogenitor" a great story, and certainly nothing new to the franchise. It wandered mercilessly in search of a point, and it lacked the coherence that it should have had, given the subject. And as I'm writing this after having watched The West Wing immediately afterward, in which they also addressed a difficult moral decision, my admiration is already tainted by the fact that I saw an ensemble of characters with multiple storylines intertwine both believably and coherently, so that all of their markedly different stories ultimately meshed into one solid and powerful hour of television, 42 minutes of which made mincemeat of this, ENT's best effort, IMHO, this season.
On a side note, I'm sorry to say that I thought Phlox was, for once, poorly used in this episode. I know LeVar Burton is capable of much better work than what I saw tonight.
[EDIT] - Added after viewing the rest of the thread:
I also found the cogenitor's suicide both predictable and inconsequential. The message from the Vissian captain might have stood on its own as being offscreen, if the cog's suicide hadn't also been offscreen. I'm sorry, but consequences that aren't experienced by somebody are just so many easy words on a page. I didn't think its situation had been well-enough defined to justify that response, and while I can see that Trip's reaction was appropriate to the news, the news itself sounded very patronizing as delivered by Archer. And like T'Bonz and James Dixon, I don't think there was any evidence that Archer saw himself in his speech to Trip; I thought it clear that the writers identify strongly with Archer and that he is almost completely oblivious to his own shortcomings. 'Write what you know,' I guess ...[/EDIT]
It felt somewhat like a TNG episode, as one thread out there suggests, but I'm not certain that's a good thing. It felt too much like a TNG episode, "The Outcast" in particular, with a great helping of "Tosk" thrown in from DS9, as well. And, yes, there are a limited number of stories that can be told, but there is a virtually limitless manner in which they can be told, so why do we get so many stories in ENT that are so directly traceable to their progenitors? (Like how I managed to slip that in there?
)What did I like, you ask?
- I liked Andreas Katsulas. A lot. I studiously avoid spoilers for ENT, and I haven't even read any of the other responses in this thread yet, because God forbid I be accused by anyone of having already formed an opinion before watching or commenting on an episode. For that matter, I didn't even know until I looked on the "official" (which I believe means "understaffed and somewhat redheaded") website that this story was written by B&B; I purposely avoid noting the writing credits when watching, also to keep from predisposing myself. I can't honestly say I was surprised. Anyway, I knew it was Andreas from the voice-only message in the teaser, and I was pleasantly corroborated with the first scene after the credits. Anyway, I thought he did an outstanding job, and his character was, for once, an overwhelmingly positive and likeable alien, something of a rarity, and which I was glad that Trip pointed out, as well.
- I thought they did a good job with the teaser, as well; it set things up nicely, and ended exactly where it needed to in order to make me want to come back after flipping through channels in order to avoid the theme music. Nearly everyone had something to do, did it well, and T'Pol was refreshingly animated, if maybe a bit flip with her, "Speak for yourself," line; I have to admit, it was worth a chuckle, although they dragged it out long enough to lose some of its impact. Still, kudos to B&B for this teaser!
- I liked Reed's encounter with (Traistana? I didn't catch her name, and the official redheaded step-child website has rather sparse information). I thought their food grope was one of the more sensual such efforts in the series; much more mature and intriguing than all of the blue-lit gel-covered bodies we've had thrust, literally, in our faces by this predominantly-juvenile series. Unfortunately, this segment had quite a bit of TNG's "Liaisons" in it, as well.
- I liked the cogenitor's conversations with Trip (that's not to say I liked Trip's side of the story, but more about that in a minute), even though I thought much of it was too easy and pat. The actress did a very good job of portraying the innocence and naïveté of "its" situation without making it seem simply ignorant or unsophisticated. I did find it a bit implausible that the cogenitor's learning curve could be so steep after spending a lifetime in a situation where he/she/it hadn't even attempted to do so when exposed to the same knowledge. Sure, it had to work that way for the story, but just once, I'd like to see the story itself conform to its requirements, instead of vice versa.
What didn't I like? Two things:
Trip ... and Archer.
If Trip wants to have feelings of moral outrage, I can understand it in the appropriate context. However, I found myself becoming increasingly irritated by his persistence in the face of something that was clearly outside both his experience and his responsibility. If the situation had been presented in a fashion where the cogenitor was clearly being abused, and Trip's inquisition hadn't been so long-lasting and coy, it would have been more plausible. As it was, it treaded a very uncomfortable line between prurience and violation of rights. All I can say is thank the stars that Trip was severely reprimanded. Oh, and one more thing I liked: T'Pol's interrogation and upbraiding of Trip; that was well-written, if not entirely well-acted, and exactly what she should have done under the circumstances. Again, kudos to B&B.
Archer's sub-plot was rather weak, though. It was nice to see him get along with Capt. Vrennick (? again, I'm going on what I heard, and the site is, again, far short on information for something that supposedly has first-hand access to everything, but apparently no interest in doing its best to utilize and disseminate the info). I realize it was setting up the desire on Vrennick's part to keep the hand of friendship extended, but it really wasn't anything more than an extended buddy-bonding, and not much of a character-developing story.
What really bugged me, besides Trip's negligence and interference, was that they would write Archer as though he had ever established himself as some sort of example of control and restraint. At the very least, he should have said, "Do as I say, Trip, not as I do," because Trip was absolutely right that it was what one could reasonably have expected Archer to do! ENT relies too much and too often upon the writers telling us what the characters should be rather than showing us; first, we were told Archer was a trained diplomat, in the face of all evidence to the contrary, and now we are expected to accept that he is a leader, not by example but by exposition. Sorry, but I don't buy it at all, and that undermines much of the last act of the episode.
And poor Mayweather! Why didn't they just hire a mute for his role, or possibly a turnip? He's the first lead character I've ever seen in a Trek series who, even after two years, remains a prop for the director to use at will and whim.
Okay, I'll stand by my B, if only because the story stacked up favorably against other ENT episodes, but I hardly consider "Cogenitor" a great story, and certainly nothing new to the franchise. It wandered mercilessly in search of a point, and it lacked the coherence that it should have had, given the subject. And as I'm writing this after having watched The West Wing immediately afterward, in which they also addressed a difficult moral decision, my admiration is already tainted by the fact that I saw an ensemble of characters with multiple storylines intertwine both believably and coherently, so that all of their markedly different stories ultimately meshed into one solid and powerful hour of television, 42 minutes of which made mincemeat of this, ENT's best effort, IMHO, this season.
On a side note, I'm sorry to say that I thought Phlox was, for once, poorly used in this episode. I know LeVar Burton is capable of much better work than what I saw tonight.
[EDIT] - Added after viewing the rest of the thread:
I also found the cogenitor's suicide both predictable and inconsequential. The message from the Vissian captain might have stood on its own as being offscreen, if the cog's suicide hadn't also been offscreen. I'm sorry, but consequences that aren't experienced by somebody are just so many easy words on a page. I didn't think its situation had been well-enough defined to justify that response, and while I can see that Trip's reaction was appropriate to the news, the news itself sounded very patronizing as delivered by Archer. And like T'Bonz and James Dixon, I don't think there was any evidence that Archer saw himself in his speech to Trip; I thought it clear that the writers identify strongly with Archer and that he is almost completely oblivious to his own shortcomings. 'Write what you know,' I guess ...[/EDIT]
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