News Georgiou Section 31 Series officially announced:

[Gonzo]

Who told you any of this?

I'm so embarrassed for you.

Your embarrassment makes no difference to me at all.

As @King Daniel Beyond was saying, its a business and Discovery is expensive to make, CBS will need to see a return on investment with solid resub numbers and good sales for the advertising space.

They wont just keep throwing money at it if its not working even if it is supposed to be the main draw for their streaming service, they will simply try something else instead, that could be another Star Trek show like Picard/Georgiou, a ToS reboot (risky but could be what is needed) or something completely different.

Burnham as a character has not been as well received as they had hoped and they may feel they are better off with a show focusing on Picard, Georgiou or maybe even Pike who then eventually hands over to a recast Kirk.

Just being realistic on the shows prospects and acknowledging the issues that have been happening behind the scenes, I will be happy for it to continue and will watch it as long as it is made but I have no illusions in regards to how the suits make decisions, the days when shows were kept running just to keep the loyal fans happy are long gone.

I do think that the shelving of Star Trek 4 could actually help, perhaps Paramount will start being a bit more open with the parts of the franchise that they own and we could see a 100% accurate Enterprise eventually.

 

[captainkirk]

Beyond all the other crimes MU-Georgiou has committed, there's also the fact that she was prepared to execute Michael, whom she considered a daughter. So you have someone who commits genocide on a galactic scale, eats sentient beings, and will kill her own family. I'm struggling to think of a more evil character in all of Star Trek. She's too ridiculous to even make a compelling villain, so how can she possibly be the protagonist?

 

[The Habs Fan]

Plus Discovery didn't do anything like as well as CBS hoped and there have been reshoots due to less than stellar internal screen tests, Discovery season 2 will need to do well and impress for the other shows to get a green light to move forward.

Also Netflix isn't writing blank cheques any more and the four short treks didn't sell for anything like what CBS hoped.

All we can do is wait and see if large numbers resub to all access for the second season.

Ummmm... everything in this post is false. If not, where's your evidence? Please don't post Midnight Edge videos as they are completely made up insiders.

 

[Gonzo]

Ummmm... everything in this post is false. If not, where's your evidence? Please don't post Midnight Edge videos as they are completely made up insiders.

I have never heard of Midnights Edge, what is that?

 

[The Habs Fan]

I have never heard of Midnights Edge, what is that?

Then where's your proof of everything you're saying?

 

[The Habs Fan]

The Picard show is filming in LA starting in April. They have already broken 8 episodes of the first season. They have announced another new animated show, Lower Decks, and picked it up for 2 seasons. They have announced at least 2 new Short Treks, both animated to air after Discovery's second season. And they have just announced a direct spinoff of Discovery starring Michelle Yeoh (obviously what this thread is about). Yet they did all of this because Discovery is a failure? Uh huh

 

[eschaton]

The Picard show is filming in LA starting in April. They have already broken 8 episodes of the first season. They have announced another new animated show, Lower Decks, and picked it up for 2 seasons. They have announced at least 2 new Short Treks, both animated to air after Discovery's second season. And they have just announced a direct spinoff of Discovery starring Michelle Yeoh (obviously what this thread is about). Yet they did all of this because Discovery is a failure? Uh huh

IIRC CBS was on the record saying that even if Discovery was a failure they were planning on immediately trying again with another Trek show. CBS is desperate for exclusive content, and doesn't have many other valuable brands.

 

[Gonzo]

Then where's your proof of everything you're saying?

Perhaps you shouldn't make assumptions about where my information comes from, I have no axe to grind with Discovery and have enjoyed watching it although it has made me laugh in places when it probably wasn't intended, however that doesn't mean I walk around with blinkers on pretending not to notice the issues that have affected its production and story.

CBS subscription numbers are not difficult to find if you know where to look, Discovery was supposed to be a big draw for the new streaming service but the numbers aren't what CBS was hoping for, that isn't purely Discovery's fault of course but its bound to influence any decisions made about the show or potential spin offs.

The performance of S2 is going to be critical as its the first season of the show which was not affected by extensive changes behind the scenes, many fans and the CBS execs gave S1 a free pass because of that, I cant see the execs doing that again even if the fans will.

I appreciate the challenges that Discovery has overcome in producing S1 and would rather acknowledge the challenges moving forwards than pretend they don't exist, the more fans that know what is at stake the more likely they are to take positive actions to help the show.

If the fans want to keep the show running then subscribe to the CBS service and watch it as soon as it released, especially the US and Canadian fans as that is what CBS will be looking at the closest.

If the fans of the show just stick their heads in the sand thinking everything is rosy then the show wont survive and that would be a shame for all involved.

 

[Gonzo]

IIRC CBS was on the record saying that even if Discovery was a failure they were planning on immediately trying again with another Trek show. CBS is desperate for exclusive content, and doesn't have many other valuable brands.

Now that I can totally believe, they wont keep throwing money at a show that is struggling for traction, they will instead identify strong areas and characters from that show and expand on those instead.

Its possible that they have announced Picard and Georgiou for that reason and that's fair enough, they are searching for a show they can build upon, Discovery may not be what they hoped it would be but others could step in now.

Personally I think a Pike/Enterprise precursor to Kirk/Enterprise would be the strongest I do think they are waiting to see how Pike and the recast Spock is received by the fans before they announce it, which would explain why they chose to show Enterprise after stating early on that we would never see it, if the response is bad (I cant see it being that bad myself) the show will be dead before it was even born.

If the precursor shows like Discovery don't work out CBS may stick with sequel shows instead like Picard, we could end up seeing the Enterprise F sooner or later.

I like to think of Discovery as a bit of a testbed for ideas and potential characters moving forward, whatever happens CBS will have gained a lot of information and understanding about what the fans want and don't want in a Star Trek TV series.

CBS went into this a bit blind I think and have learned some harsh but valuable lessons.

 

[The Habs Fan]

CBS All-Access had 2.5 million subscribers as of August 2018. That was with no other original content than Discovery and The Good Fight.

https://www.broadcastingcable.com/news/tca-2018-cbs-all-access-has-2-5-million-subscribers

https://decider.com/2018/03/07/cbs-all-access-year-1/


If those subscribers are paying $10, CBS is making 300 million dollars a year on subscriptions alone. If some of the subscribers are paying the lower monthly amount, CBS is making advertising revenue. As I've explained before in another thread, or maybe this one, a channel makes more money off of subscribers than off of ratings so you can't equate 2.5 million subscribers to 2.5 million live viewers. The subscribers are more valuable.

The other thing to keep in mind is that is US alone. What about the 180-something countries it airs in?

Star Trek Discovery is the only flagship show CBS All Access has so far. If it offers more quality shows that hit the mainstream other than Star Trek in the next few years, more people will subscribe. As it is, 2.5 million people are not the only people watching Discovery in the US as it can also be watched on Amazon Prime and obviously by other illegal means.

 

[Gonzo]

The execs will be watching what happens to the subscriptions just prior to the S2 start (right now in other words) and as the second season moves forward, if I was them I would be most interested in the reaction in the subs to the introduction of the new Spock, Number 1 and Pike to try and gauge the fans reactions.

They know that many Star Trek fans cancelled their subs when Season 1 finished (some even before that) so they will be watching very closely to see how many come back and will likely base their decisions on that in regards to Discovery

If the new Spock, Number One and Pike are well received I will be very surprised if we don't see an announcement for some kind of pre Kirk Enterprise show, its the perfect way to lead into a reboot ToS and if done right it will give CBS the Flagship streaming show/franchise they so desperately want.

They are also testing the water with a sequel show and Picard is a good start but I have no doubt they have grander plans beyond that character/show, a limited (at first) Picard series setting the stage in 2399 is ideal and if it is well received they could spin off in so many directions.

Must admit of all the options available to them a Georgiou/S31 was not at the top of the most likely list, I do look forward to S31 finally being fleshed out properly as it will hopefully put a stop to some of the blinkered comments I have seen about the organisation based on nothing at all, same goes for MU Georgiou (Space Hitler, seriously), her character is a product of the MU where it is kill or be killed and as such her previous actions are well within expectations.

 

[Rahul]

Rahul, I'm going to take step on the optimistic side for just a moment. I'm going to ask that the "Space Cannibal Hitler" emotional filter be removed for just a moment. I appreciate your passion but I'm going to attempt to offer a different point of view.

Now, I'll appreciate this optimistic attitute, and I'm not telling anyone else to not like it only because I don't like it. But man, do i hate it.

The thing is: "Cannibal Space Hitler" as the hero is already entirely enough for me to not like this, at all. And nothing short of a complete reboot of her character and history so far is going to change that. I already hated how her character was used in the season 1 finale of DIS. And this (+ returning Klingons) are the two things I don't look forward to in season 2.

Now, I'll probably check out the first episode of "Cannibal Space Hitler spy show" one day anyway, but only out of a morbid curiosity, and I'll most certainly won't become a follower of this show no matter what. My main issue is that it might sour my enjoment of other Trek as a result: I already didn't look forward to MU Georgiou returning for season 2. But I saw it as kinda' necessary, because the character simply does exist. But I was hoping she would be a better version of "Khan" in "Into Darkness" - a contemporary ally that's still the enemy ultimately. But knowing the plans for her future, it's already building up a big dislike for the episodes she's featured in. And that's really a shame, because I liked te Short Treks a great deal, I'm actually really interested in what they are going to do with the red angles, and I really like Anson Mount and can tolerate the inclusion of the Pike-Enterprise and Spock. But this? Yeah, no. Not my cup of tea at all.

First of all, Star Trek has not portrayed humanity as perfect or even above genocide in the future, unfortunately. The darker aspects of human nature still very much reside, as illustrated by Archer's actions on "Dear Doctor," Kirk's orders in "A Taste of Armageddon," Picard's response to the clone civilization in "Up the Long Ladder". Not to mention Starfleet's attitude towards the Borg, the Klingons and the Founders.

Now, all that said, what Star Trek has done is present an optimistic portrayal of humanity, that they can put aside their darker impulsives and, as Kirk said, "choose to not kill today." Star Trek presents a society where that is possible for a human being to grow and to change and to become better.

Just a side-note: There is a massive difference in "not helping", "indirectly causing" something and "personally ordering" genocide. Mao killed a LOT more people than Hitler. But that happened indirectly, through mismanagement of a large population, leading to devastating famine. Hitler OTOH personally ordered the extinction of millions of people. That's why he is remembered as histories biggest monster. MU Georgiou is Hitler, combined with cannibalism and an enjoyment of her evil deeds not even real life Hitler has shown in any documented records. That's just too much to ever look over for me.

Now, I might eat these words, but I prefer optimism as my main course so I'll take the risk. This show could be a demonstration of that evolution from someone who is "irredeemable" and transitions to someone more morally aware.And, in all honesty, how is this any different than Mirror Spock's path set up in "Mirror Mirror"?

Star Trek offers the optimistic idea that humanity can survive and move past this nature. Now they have an opportunity to utilize a "savage human" and possibly demonstrate that growth. Now, this is all optimistic spin on my part and for all I know this show will turn into little more than spy action show stuff. In which case, I'll stop watching and let it go on its way. But, if "Mirror Mirror" demonstrates the idea of one person changing can alter the course of an empire then I will hold on to a hopeful idea that a hopeful humanity can turn the heart of evil towards the positive side of humanity.

The larger difference - for Mirror Mirror Spock - for me at least, is that MU Spock was a part of the system. A result. More like Gul Dukat as I wrote about him earlier, only with even less personal fault. He was an outsider in a system, that managed to integrate into the system, and grow up the ladder until he reached a point of larger personal responsibility. And at that point (with a little help), his ethics kicked in, and he tried to change the system, limited resources that he had, step by step, to the better. This guy is a hero. Like military leaders in real-life dictatorships that slowly give the power away to jump-start a democtratic process.

MU georgiou on the ther hand was shaping the entire system! She's the ultimate leader, the one that installed this depraved barbarity. She could have people stop eating Kelpians with one small order. But she didn't. not even because she was afraid. But because she liked eating Kelpians.

She's a monster! In fact, I still don't get why MU Lorca was the supposed "badguy" in this conflict: By all accounts, he couldn't have been worse than MU Georgiou. He was delusional, of course. But we never saw him eating other sentient life-forms, or nuke entire planets. Both things we saw MU Georgiou do, with the implication she did them regularly.

 

[Rahul]

CBS All-Access had 2.5 million subscribers as of August 2018. That was with no other original content than Discovery and The Good Fight.

https://www.broadcastingcable.com/news/tca-2018-cbs-all-access-has-2-5-million-subscribers

https://decider.com/2018/03/07/cbs-all-access-year-1/


If those subscribers are paying $10, CBS is making 300 million dollars a year on subscriptions alone. If some of the subscribers are paying the lower monthly amount, CBS is making advertising revenue. As I've explained before in another thread, or maybe this one, a channel makes more money off of subscribers than off of ratings so you can't equate 2.5 million subscribers to 2.5 million live viewers. The subscribers are more valuable.

The other thing to keep in mind is that is US alone. What about the 180-something countries it airs in?

Star Trek Discovery is the only flagship show CBS All Access has so far. If it offers more quality shows that hit the mainstream other than Star Trek in the next few years, more people will subscribe. As it is, 2.5 million people are not the only people watching Discovery in the US as it can also be watched on Amazon Prime and obviously by other illegal means.

Good break-down!

Now, it should be noted that this subscription money doesn't go entirely into "Star Trek" pocket. All this money has to pay an entire infra-structe: Streaming technology that makes (almost)HD-livestreams possible for millions of people. It has to pay for an entire bureaucracy, managers, producers, creators. Also, ALL other shows that get produced! The good wife? Twilight Zone? All pulling from the same pool. As such, 300 mio. becomes very little money very fast.

But it IS true, that for All Access the "actual" audience number for any single show aren't that important. What they care for is people keeping their subscription. And sometimes, that means have a show that nobody watches around (like animated or minor character spin-offs), only so that people keep their subscription because they might watch the show.

 

[marsh8472]

Was that really necessary?

This is something that we all understand. Show some respect. It doesn't need to be said. And definitely not to win some stupid argument.

So, are you hoping for that to happen?

I'm truly at a loss for what the point of this comment is.The Picard show is announced, and crew have been hired, with Stewart on board.

Very cute. I state a quick fact I googled then everyone assumes the worst, then tries to plant the seed to start a flame war over it. Very clever. Well played, you failed though.

 

[The Habs Fan]

Good break-down!

Now, it should be noted that this subscription money doesn't go entirely into "Star Trek" pocket. All this money has to pay an entire infra-structe: Streaming technology that makes (almost)HD-livestreams possible for millions of people. It has to pay for an entire bureaucracy, managers, producers, creators. Also, ALL other shows that get produced! The good wife? Twilight Zone? All pulling from the same pool. As such, 300 mio. becomes very little money very fast.

But it IS true, that for All Access the "actual" audience number for any single show aren't that important. What they care for is people keeping their subscription. And sometimes, that means have a show that nobody watches around (like animated or minor character spin-offs), only so that people keep their subscription because they might watch the show.

Yes, I was over-simplifying the money issue as it's not what CBS takes home as there are a lot of expenses, but they're still getting paid directly by the consumer which is always better.

There's no doubt about it that CBS All-Access needs more subscribers and that will only come with more content. However, CBS needs it to succeed in order to compete with the future TV market so I'm sure they will do everything in their power to keep it going. There's no indication that it's failing as they're hoping for 8 million subscribers by the early 2020s, but even if it does fail, it will inevitably return as a re-branded service. The best thing that can happen to CBS All-Access is CBS reuniting with Paramount. The extra content would help attract it more to the younger consumer. Right now, mostly old people watch CBS and it's the younger generation who mostly use streaming sites.

Or maybe with all of the Star Trek series announced, they should just become the Star Trek streaming service.

 

[marsh8472]

Ummmm... everything in this post is false. If not, where's your evidence? Please don't post Midnight Edge videos as they are completely made up insiders.

I've heard this too, probably from some video. But here's a link with some information https://www.nscreenmedia.com/cbs-all-access-star-trek-discovery-growth-slows/ they do devote a lot of money to graphics, not easy to make up the difference. My guess is it's going to be a successful season 2 or a bust.

 

[UssGlenn]

The best thing that can happen to CBS All-Access is CBS reuniting with Paramount. The extra content would help attract it more to the younger consumer.

Yeah the movies tab is absolutely pitiful. But it does show a future expansion point.

 

[The Habs Fan]

I've heard this too, probably from some video. But here's a link with some information https://www.nscreenmedia.com/cbs-all-access-star-trek-discovery-growth-slows/ they do devote a lot of money to graphics, not easy to make up the difference. My guess is it's going to be a successful season 2 or a bust.

The methodology they use to obtain those numbers are purely speculative and without basis. First of all, even if those numbers are correct, they ignore the amount of people who watch on Amazon Prime and who download the show illegally (it's one of the most pirated shows). It also ignores the amount of people watching worldwide, which again has never happened before in the history of Star Trek (that everyone in 180+ countries can watch a new Star Trek episode within 24 hours of each other). The writer of the article also compares it to viewer numbers of network shows, which of course there is no comparison. With that said, subscriber numbers are worth more so there can be fewer. The article also ignores the fact that 9.5 million people watched the premiere on CBS. Also, the writer of that article admits in the comments that he thinks Discovery is not "real Star Trek". So he's already operating from a bias.

Yes, if you compare the numbers of Discovery from CBS All-Access only (a streaming service), to previous Star Trek shows that were over the air network or syndicated shows air on a network, the numbers are lower. But that's definitely not the whole story. Cable can't compete with network shows with viewership numbers even though the quality of shows are generally a lot higher on cable.

 

[The Habs Fan]

What I have also haven't brought up is the biggest threat to a show as to whether it will get cancelled or not are the other shows on the same network. How it compares in ratings to other shows on the same network determines whether a show will be renewed or not. Star Trek Discovery is, at the moment, the most popular show on CBS All-Access. It's not in any danger of going anywhere. Even if the Picard show beats it in streaming numbers, Discovery will still be #2. CBS All-Access cancelling Discovery at this point would be akin to pulling the plug on its streaming service.

 

[fireproof78]

Just a side-note: There is a massive difference in "not helping", "indirectly causing" something and "personally ordering" genocide. Mao killed a LOT more people than Hitler. But that happened indirectly, through mismanagement of a large population, leading to devastating famine. Hitler OTOH personally ordered the extinction of millions of people. That's why he is remembered as histories biggest monster. MU Georgiou is Hitler, combined with cannibalism and an enjoyment of her evil deeds not even real life Hitler has shown in any documented records. That's just too much to ever look over for me.

I'm not trying to say to like Georgiou. At all. I personally am struggling with how they could possibly frame this show in to a positive in terms of Star Trek. Now, I personally don't like Georgiou, even her Prime counterpart, and a whole on this premise seems a stretch, at best.

Now, again, star Trek has shown leaders in the past willing to order genocide, as illustrated by the examples I listed. Again, the Borg, the Founders, as well as the population of Eminar VII by Kirk himself.

I don't think you'll watch it or enjoy it. I just am looking at it from the possibility that it can be framed in to the Star Trek universe as a whole.

Very cute. I state a quick fact I googled then everyone assumes the worst, then tries to plant the seed to start a flame war over it. Very clever. Well played, you failed though.

Right...no.