"First Contact" - The rape of Riker

[Orphalesion]

, you should be aware that lesbians can be feminine, and attractive, and that in simple terms the characters were at that point essentially homosexual, as both were women.

I was NOT saying that they can't be.

I was just saying that it wasn't a coincidence that those two actresses were chosen in the climate that existed back then. In my opinion it seems clear they were chosen both for titillation of their "target audience" not for representation, and because they'd be the most "non-threatening" to said target audience.

 

[jaime]

I was NOT saying that they can't be.

I was just saying that it wasn't a coincidence that those two actresses were chosen in the climate that existed back then. In my opinion it seems clear they were chosen both for titillation of their "target audience" not for representation, and because they'd be the most "non-threatening" to said target audience.

There are very few ugly people in Hollywood TV series, less in Starfleet uniform xD

 

[Orphalesion]

There are very few ugly people in Hollywood TV series, less in Starfleet uniform xD

I suspect you know what I mean but you are trying to be fastidious.

In any case; don't put words into my mouth, alright?!

 

[Ragitsu]

Is that about my idea to switch Troi and Worf's "devolutions"?
In that case, I just want to clarify that didn't mean it in any " aggressive female pursues passive male" way.

Apology #1: Sorry for the late reply!

Apology #2: That post of mine was a random observation and unconnected to anything you previously mentioned.

That said, I do appreciate you going the distance with your response.

 

[jaime]

I suspect you know what I mean but you are trying to be fastidious.

In any case; don't put words into my mouth, alright?!

I just think maybe outright saying ‘in my opinion that scene was just pandering to the male gaze’ as seems to be your intent might have been better (though I think at the time it was welcome representation, especially when you consider that what was important in some ways was the other characters reactions) because the initial phrasing really could be too easily read as ‘they weren’t gay women cos they were too pretty’ which I don’t think was your intent. So no, no attempt to put words in your mouth, and I apologise if that is what you feel is happening.

As to the ‘weird alien thing made them do it’ well.. that’s what trek did. It used allegory to talk about things that otherwise wouldn’t be welcomed by the viewing public/networks of the day, or sometimes just trying to get to audiences and challenge their thinking.
If an audience can get behind Lenara/Jadzia, by believing in the love story and how far Dax is willing to go (which is what the story does) then the audience *has* to question why it matters they are both women. (If it does)

It is a little like what TNG tried in a couple of stories, but goes a few steps further. One of the steps — and one that should not be overlooked — is that *none* of ‘our’ characters are against the same sex aspect.

 

[Mudd]

The viewing public and, in fact, the networks were way out in front of the Trek producers by that time.

 

[jaime]

The viewing public and, in fact, the networks were way out in front of the Trek producers by that time.

And society in general? Where allegory is a useful tool?

This was all the same era where B5 and Buffy had their own gay, female, characters… but even then it was careful treading. Trek may not have been a trailblazer, but it was certainly contributing to the progression.

 

[Ragitsu]

From what I've managed to perceive, the broader public (i.e., the people who aren't Star Trek fans) view the episode as a positive milestone despite the attendant seamy implications.

 

[JesterFace]

When is comes to Riker, would it even be a rape, more like he would be interested to get naughty with a naughty alien nurse.

 

[Ragitsu]

he would be interested to get naughty with a naughty alien nurse.

When every minute spent is another minute he could get caught? I know Riker is up for many things, but he's not that much of a horndog.

 

[Ragitsu]

You could also argue he was raped in The Host.

I wonder if Riker, Beverly and/or Odan discussed any ground rules before the Commander accepted the Trill.

 

[Mudd]

When every minute spent is another minute he could get caught? I know Riker is up for many things, but he's not that much of a horndog.

And yet, life is just chock full of "He did what? Is he insane?" moments.

 

[Mudd]

Shockingly enough, this scene is somehow preserved on Youtube.

Who'd have expected a random Star Trek clip to be easily found on Youtube?

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I really didn't remember the scene; I haven't watched the show in decades and I didn't write it. But it's hard to read coercion in that exchange, IMO. It's more transactional. She offers him conditional assistance; she never threatens to expose him or anything else. The closest to that she gets is the "It's your only way out of here" line, which is ominous only out of context.

 

[Ragitsu]

Would you be comfortable asserting that this scene would carry the same tone if the nurse had been male and the "operative" had been female (likely Deanna or maybe Beverly)?

 

[Mudd]

I watched the scene, and that's what I think of it..

From the summary in the OP, I really expected something different from what I saw.

 

[Ragitsu]

Riker - whose life (or at least his continued standard of health) is in jeopardy - decides to willingly delay his escape for...sex? William Riker, a high-ranking officer of Starfleet's flagship, who is trying to avoid or at the very least minimize cultural contamination, thinks this is a good idea? That doesn't track.

 

[Mudd]

Riker - whose life (or at least his continued standard of health) is in jeopardy - decides to willingly delay his escape for...sex? William Riker, a high-ranking officer of Starfleet's flagship, who is trying to avoid or at the very least minimize cultural contamination, thinks this is a good idea? That doesn't track.

That's because Riker is not a real human being but a TV character, and people on TV shows frequently do things for dramatic or humorous reasons that real people wouldn't do.

So your reasoning is a real slender reed to build a claim for coercion on. In fact, this whole conversational train trivializes really serious issues by throwing around accusations of fictional "rape" so casually.

 

[Ragitsu]

That's because Riker is not a real human being but a TV character, and people on TV shows frequently do things for dramatic or humorous reasons that real people wouldn't do.

It's called "tonal inconsistency" in addition to being characteristic of early 90s television writing (at least in the states) concerning men and the humor derived from placing them in situations where they're not keen on having sex. Do you maintain that this scene would have been equally acceptable if the sexes had been flipped?

 

[Guy Gardener]

There's no way in hell they would have gotten away with it if the nurse had been male and the Enterprise crewmember female. That would clearly be exploitation. Yet Riker, being a guy, is basically told to "man up" and laugh it off...so somehow when it happens to men, it's okay?

Even though Riker doesn't seem to have a problem with sleeping with Lanel (and I'm sure they actually did do it), it doesn't make the situation any less coercive.

Fun fact: Bebe Neuwirth had to constantly shuttle back and forth, in full alien makeup, between the TNG and Cheers sets, due to filming both series at the same time...

Janeway dressed up as a prostitute and partially seduced a number of prison guards to rescue her chained up crew in the season 2 episode Resistance.

Much later she dressed up as a Spider Queen to seduce Chaotica, but we have no idea how x-rated that program was before the safeties broke.

 

[Ragitsu]

Janeway dressed up as a prostitute

The forgotten Voyager Halloween episode?