"First Contact" - The rape of Riker

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by Ragitsu, Jun 26, 2022.

  1. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2014
    I was NOT saying that they can't be.

    I was just saying that it wasn't a coincidence that those two actresses were chosen in the climate that existed back then. In my opinion it seems clear they were chosen both for titillation of their "target audience" not for representation, and because they'd be the most "non-threatening" to said target audience.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2022
  2. jaime

    jaime Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Location:
    London
    There are very few ugly people in Hollywood TV series, less in Starfleet uniform xD
     
  3. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2014
    I suspect you know what I mean but you are trying to be fastidious.

    In any case; don't put words into my mouth, alright?!
     
  4. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    Apology #1: Sorry for the late reply!

    Apology #2: That post of mine was a random observation and unconnected to anything you previously mentioned.

    That said, I do appreciate you going the distance with your response.
     
    Orphalesion likes this.
  5. jaime

    jaime Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Location:
    London
    I just think maybe outright saying ‘in my opinion that scene was just pandering to the male gaze’ as seems to be your intent might have been better (though I think at the time it was welcome representation, especially when you consider that what was important in some ways was the other characters reactions) because the initial phrasing really could be too easily read as ‘they weren’t gay women cos they were too pretty’ which I don’t think was your intent. So no, no attempt to put words in your mouth, and I apologise if that is what you feel is happening.

    As to the ‘weird alien thing made them do it’ well.. that’s what trek did. It used allegory to talk about things that otherwise wouldn’t be welcomed by the viewing public/networks of the day, or sometimes just trying to get to audiences and challenge their thinking.
    If an audience can get behind Lenara/Jadzia, by believing in the love story and how far Dax is willing to go (which is what the story does) then the audience *has* to question why it matters they are both women. (If it does)

    It is a little like what TNG tried in a couple of stories, but goes a few steps further. One of the steps — and one that should not be overlooked — is that *none* of ‘our’ characters are against the same sex aspect.
     
    Doug Otte likes this.
  6. Serveaux

    Serveaux Fleet Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2013
    Location:
    In a dream
    The viewing public and, in fact, the networks were way out in front of the Trek producers by that time.
     
    fireproof78 likes this.
  7. jaime

    jaime Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Location:
    London
    And society in general? Where allegory is a useful tool?

    This was all the same era where B5 and Buffy had their own gay, female, characters… but even then it was careful treading. Trek may not have been a trailblazer, but it was certainly contributing to the progression.
     
  8. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    From what I've managed to perceive, the broader public (i.e., the people who aren't Star Trek fans) view the episode as a positive milestone despite the attendant seamy implications.
     
  9. JesterFace

    JesterFace Fleet Captain Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2014
    Location:
    Suomi Finland
    When is comes to Riker, would it even be a rape, more like he would be interested to get naughty with a naughty alien nurse.
     
  10. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    When every minute spent is another minute he could get caught? I know Riker is up for many things, but he's not that much of a horndog.
     
  11. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    I wonder if Riker, Beverly and/or Odan discussed any ground rules before the Commander accepted the Trill.
     
  12. Serveaux

    Serveaux Fleet Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2013
    Location:
    In a dream
    And yet, life is just chock full of "He did what? Is he insane?" moments.
     
  13. Serveaux

    Serveaux Fleet Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2013
    Location:
    In a dream
    Shockingly enough, this scene is somehow preserved on Youtube.

    Who'd have expected a random Star Trek clip to be easily found on Youtube? :lol:



    I really didn't remember the scene; I haven't watched the show in decades and I didn't write it. But it's hard to read coercion in that exchange, IMO. It's more transactional. She offers him conditional assistance; she never threatens to expose him or anything else. The closest to that she gets is the "It's your only way out of here" line, which is ominous only out of context.
     
  14. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    Would you be comfortable asserting that this scene would carry the same tone if the nurse had been male and the "operative" had been female (likely Deanna or maybe Beverly)?
     
  15. Serveaux

    Serveaux Fleet Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2013
    Location:
    In a dream
    I watched the scene, and that's what I think of it..

    From the summary in the OP, I really expected something different from what I saw.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2022
  16. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    Riker - whose life (or at least his continued standard of health) is in jeopardy - decides to willingly delay his escape for...sex? William Riker, a high-ranking officer of Starfleet's flagship, who is trying to avoid or at the very least minimize cultural contamination, thinks this is a good idea? That doesn't track.
     
  17. Serveaux

    Serveaux Fleet Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2013
    Location:
    In a dream
    That's because Riker is not a real human being but a TV character, and people on TV shows frequently do things for dramatic or humorous reasons that real people wouldn't do.

    So your reasoning is a real slender reed to build a claim for coercion on. In fact, this whole conversational train trivializes really serious issues by throwing around accusations of fictional "rape" so casually.
     
  18. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    It's called "tonal inconsistency" in addition to being characteristic of early 90s television writing (at least in the states) concerning men and the humor derived from placing them in situations where they're not keen on having sex. Do you maintain that this scene would have been equally acceptable if the sexes had been flipped?
     
  19. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Janeway dressed up as a prostitute and partially seduced a number of prison guards to rescue her chained up crew in the season 2 episode Resistance.

    Much later she dressed up as a Spider Queen to seduce Chaotica, but we have no idea how x-rated that program was before the safeties broke.
     
  20. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    The forgotten Voyager Halloween episode?