Farscape or Babylon 5?

[JD]

Honestly, I like stories where things don't always work out perfectly, and where our characters make mistakes, and have to do bad things occasionally. Honestly, if everything always works out perfectly right away, and nobody ever screws up it can get really boring.
How's the old saying go? Things are always darkest before the dawn?

 

[Reverend]

Spontaneous species-wide transformation like that isn't evolution, its revolution. That shit doesn't happen naturally, it requires some sort of intentional technological catalyst.

Spoiler: In the finale

I was always under the impression Sheridan "got it" right before he died and evolved into a Vorlon instead. Hence, the light you see emanate from within the Whitestar

I don't want to get into a spoiler tag discussion since it's not fair to Kirk, but I'll just say this: -

Spoiler: In the finale

Sheridan was not alone in that room. Whatever he became, he had outside help and I think we all know who from.

But yeah, individuals don't evolve in that way, especially not species-wide. It just doesn't work that way. Evolutionary changes happen across generations in response to environmental pressures, usually by way of random mutation filtered through the process of natural selection. It'd make about as much sense as a subterranean cave dwelling species spontaneously growing wings.

Additionally, the Vorlons *weren't* non-corporeal energy beings as a lot of people assume. They were highly evolved, very old and extremely powerful telekinetic beings who were nonetheless physical creatures, as were the Shadows. Remember Kosh is poisoned in the pilot movie by a chemical compound administered through the skin and Dr. Kyle is able to read his vital signs and treat him. More to the point, Ulkesh was killed by a combination of direct current from a very large fusion reactor, a barrage of ppg bullets and the last remnant of another Vorlon trying to rip it's head off.

Indeed, when we finally see a Kosh and Ulkesh's true forms...well, just the fact that they *have* forms proves they're not pure energy beings. Granted it's hard to make out the shape, but I like to think they're meant to look something like Lovecraft's Elder Things. For some reason the idea of Vorlons evolving from some bio-luminescent deep sea creature appeals to me.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Spontaneous species-wide transformation like that isn't evolution, its revolution. That shit doesn't happen naturally, it requires some sort of intentional technological catalyst.

Spoiler: In the finale

I was always under the impression Sheridan "got it" right before he died and evolved into a Vorlon instead. Hence, the light you see emanate from within the Whitestar

Spoiler: spoiler

With some help from Lorien.

 

[Booji]

Reverend: I hear where you're coming from. However, we're talking completely different evolutionary processes. i look at the Vorlons and future humans as evolving not on a physical level, but on a mental one. Once that occurs, the species is completely aware and able to transcend there physical bodies to become pure energy. When Ulkesh and Kosh duke it out, the bodies are not physical in the normal sense. Their "bodies" are energy. If I remember correctly, the ppgs and electric current were used against the encounter suit, not Ulkesh's "body". Once Ulkesh let loose, it was Kosh and that little bit of Lorien who did the deed.

 

[Booji]

Gov Kodos: I think Lorien gave him a hit of acid and played Tool's "Third Eye" to speed up the mental process

 

[Gov Kodos]

Reverend: I hear where you're coming from. However, we're talking completely different evolutionary processes. i look at the Vorlons and future humans as evolving not on a physical level, but on a mental one. Once that occurs, the species is completely aware and able to transcend there physical bodies to become pure energy. When Ulkesh and Kosh duke it out, the bodies are not physical in the normal sense. Their "bodies" are energy. If I remember correctly, the ppgs and electric current were used against the encounter suit, not Ulkesh's "body". Once Ulkesh let loose, it was Kosh and that little bit of Lorien who did the deed.

I think that is where telepathy and certain genes are important in the evolution to the energy being state in the B5 universe. The Narns lost it, and the Centauri killed off the Xon, they lost huge chunks of their genetic heritage leaving them dying species as Kosh told Sinclair in S1. That is they are not on a path to that state any longer. The implication is more or less explicit in the S1 episode with Jason Ironheart.

 

[Sindatur]

Reverend: I hear where you're coming from. However, we're talking completely different evolutionary processes. i look at the Vorlons and future humans as evolving not on a physical level, but on a mental one. Once that occurs, the species is completely aware and able to transcend there physical bodies to become pure energy. When Ulkesh and Kosh duke it out, the bodies are not physical in the normal sense. Their "bodies" are energy. If I remember correctly, the ppgs and electric current were used against the encounter suit, not Ulkesh's "body". Once Ulkesh let loose, it was Kosh and that little bit of Lorien who did the deed.

I think that is where telepathy and certain genes are important in the evolution to the energy being state in the B5 universe. The Narns lost it, and the Centauri killed off the Xon, they lost huge chunks of their genetic heritage leaving them dying species as Kosh told Sinclair in S1. That is they are not on a path to that state any longer. The implication is more or less explicit in the S1 episode with Jason Ironheart.

And Ironheart even knew how long it would take ("See You in a Million Years")

 

[kirk55555]

I'd rather the show opened up more interesting questions than just "What happens next?" so I don't care about these "future spoilers".

I think kirk55555 would really hate the Dune series of books.

Dune is one of my favorite book series, I've read every one, even the ones Brian Herbert did based off of outlines his Dad wrote, and the prequels with Duke Leto and Paul set before the first trilogy The only ones I didn't care for were the ones set during the The Butlerian Jihad. I couldn't get through even the first of those books, but the rest of the series is great, although the original 3 (Dune, Dune Messiah and Children of Dune) will always be my favorites.

Now, to the B5 episode I just watched.

The very Long Night of Londo Mollari - I'm glad we're getting a Londo episode so early in the seaon. I didn't expect that Lennier was planning to leave, although it makes sense. I liked Lennier and Vir's talk, especially about the "Shirley Temple" Londo's dream was interesting. I didn't know how this dream set up would go, but it turned out very well. The G'Kar section was especially good. It was interesting to learn about Londo's first wife, who he married for love but had to divorce. This turned out to be a great episode. The dream stuff worked well, and we got to learn more about Londo.

 

[Snatcher42]

Heh, no one comments when Kirk likes something. :P

Londo is my favorite thing about Season 5, and The Very Long Night is a very good episode!

 

[JoeD80]

I love this episode. A dream episode where it actually affects the character in a significant way. G'Kar as Cartagia is fun and I also love Vir's scenes in this episode.

G'Kar is the highlight of season five for me; so much good stuff coming IMO.

 

[kirk55555]

The Paragon of Animals - I figured that the League would still cause trouble sometimes., like not wanting to sign the declaration. Lyta's scene with the dying ranger was interesting, as was learning what its like for a telepath to be in a person's mind when they die. The narration of g'Kar's declaration was cool. The telepath colony is going to be a problem. Byron is annoying. He seems like a guy who would start a telepath/normal person war. He reminds me characters like Magneto, or Kahn. He thinks his people are superior because of their talents that normal humans don't have. If he had the resources, he seems more likely to start a war than even someone like Bester. Byron wasn't even grateful to Sheridan for giving his people a place to stay. He wouldn't have told them about the Drazi trap if Lyta hadn't gotten him to. Also, Byron's quote sounded a lot better when Picard was using it on Q (although Picard didn't go as far with the quote as Byron did). When Byron said it, he just came off as more of a ass.

Also, this was annoying me. what was up with this

G'kar had weird white powder next to his eyes all episode. Its never been there before, and its never explained. Is it a makeup mistake, or just something that gets explained later? Or, did I just miss the explanation? I can't find anything online about it, but it was very noticeable.

 

[Reverend]

Magneto is probably a pretty good analogy for Byron, from a character motivation POV. They're both part of a minority group that *are* superior to humans and as a result have been persecuted for generations because of the very real threat they represent. I mean come on, a trained P12 can give you a stroke just by looking at you. They can crack your mind wide open, learn everything you know, wipe out and rebuild a personality from scratch, implant suggestions, false memory or doom a person to spend the rest of their life screaming at things only they can see. All without so much as laying a finger on them. There are even telekinetics, but they're very rare and most are unstable. If that's not superior, I don't know what is.

As a result, teeps have had some very very nasty things done to them, mostly by their own kind and mostly because the mundanes allowed or even encouraged them to do so. From birth or adolescence (depending on when they manifest) they've been rejected by "normal" human society, then betrayed and abused by Psi Corps which was supposed to be their surrogate family. Given all that, it's hardly surprising that the once that escaped are resentful towards mundanes to say the least.

As for a lack of gratitude; from where they sit, they've been used and abused by the likes of Sheridan (and indeed, Sheridan himself) so much that they quite rightly feel that they're *owed* allot more than they're being given.

 

[kirk55555]

Still, they are only causing trouble at this point. Like magneto, they're not doing a good job in proving the people that hate/fear them wrong, although they're not activly making it worse like Magneto does, atleast not yet. But, as Deconstruction of falling Stars showed, garibaldi will eventually be kidnapped by Telepaths, probably these ones, when its at the point where they are just telepaths, so I have a really hard time having sympathy for them. If they want to be treated better, even among the b5 people who in general are a lot nicer to telepaths than most, they have to meet them halfway. I'm not saying they should have just joined Garibaldi's plan (I can see why they might not like that), but the Drazi info could have been a nice peace offering, to show they could work together. Instead, Byron would have let the whole White star fleet die because he's an ass. Standing aside and letting innocent people die when you can prevent it, especially as easily as he could have, is evil, plain and simple. If he has no problems with doing that, he really shouldn't pretend like his group deserves better, when he doesn't treat non telepaths any better than they treat him, when given the opportunity.

 

[Jan]

It was interesting to learn about Londo's first wife, who he married for love but had to divorce. This turned out to be a great episode. The dream stuff worked well, and we got to learn more about Londo.

Londo's spoken about his first wife the dancer before. Remember in "A Voice in the Wilderness" when Londo and Garibaldi are talking and he says how he married a dancer who kissed him on the forehead? That's her.

This is a favorite episode of mine. Very different from the usual but it gives a lot of insight into Londo.

Re: The B5 folks treatment of telepaths, Lyta in particular. Actually, they're all pretty guilty of using her and discarding her when she's done as they asked. There's a *lot* of unconscious prejudice there, both because of her being a telepath and her not being a member of the 'club'.

Jan

 

[Reverend]

Still, they are only causing trouble at this point. Like magneto, they're not doing a good job in proving the people that hate/fear them wrong, although they're not activly making it worse like Magneto does, atleast not yet. But, as Deconstruction of falling Stars showed, garibaldi will eventually be kidnapped by Telepaths, probably these ones, when its at the point where they are just telepaths, so I have a really hard time having sympathy for them. If they want to be treated better, even among the b5 people who in general are a lot nicer to telepaths than most, they have to meet them halfway. I'm not saying they should have just joined Garibaldi's plan (I can see why they might not like that), but the Drazi info could have been a nice peace offering, to show they could work together. Instead, Byron would have let the whole White star fleet die because he's an ass. Standing aside and letting innocent people die when you can prevent it, especially as easily as he could have, is evil, plain and simple. If he has no problems with doing that, he really shouldn't pretend like his group deserves better, when he doesn't treat non telepaths any better than they treat him, when given the opportunity.

So they should be grateful that they're being allowed to eek out an existence in what is essentially a slum and do exactly what they're told, when they're told and expect nothing in return? It's not like they've been given even low-rent quarters or a communal habitation. Downbelow is basically a utility area near the outer hull where all the sewage processing and the like is routed.

It's analogous to saying that an escaped slave circa mid-1800's America is being uppity because they don't appreciate that the kind farmer is allowing them the honour of spending the night in the pig pen.

Are they being an inconvenience? Yeah, of course they are. They want better treatment and last I checked, no oppressed minority EVER got better treatment by being quiet and thankful for the meagre crumbs their betters deign to tip on the floor for them.

Would women have gotten the vote if the suffragettes had stayed at home and stopped being such a nuisance? Should the abolitionists have kept quiet and just waited for the plantation owners to spontaneously free the slaves on their own? What do you think?

Also remember that some of these people would have been the very same telepaths that Sheridan recruited into the Army of Light to jam Shadow Vessels and protect League ships. They're not just random drifters asking for a free meal, they're war heroes looking for a home of their own. Somewhere where they can live in peace, free of arranged marriages, enforced impregnation, medical experiments, the re-education camps, the living death that is life on the sleepers and the constant state of fear and paranoia that is life in the Corps.

 

[Jan]

Yeah, what Reverend said! Darned inconvenient telepaths!

Jan

 

[kirk55555]

I don't mean to say I don't think they need to be treated better, but Byron's actions are just making them seem like asses. I bet you Sheridan would have done what he could if a large group of telepaths were about to get murdered in an ambush, and he could help them live. Byron didn't even seem to think about telling Sheridan about the trap, until Lyta talked to him. My problem is less with the group in general and more with him. Sure, the telepaths have suffered a lot, and gotten treated unfairly. Repaying that by not helping the few people who don't hate you or want to see you subjugated (and regardless of some trust issues, Sheridan and most of his crew usually treat telepaths a lot better than most people seem to) when all you need to do is send them a note is not helping their cause. The fact that Byron thinks of his race as superior just contributes to him being a very unsympathetic figure himself, regardless of what normal humans do or do not think of telepaths. I'm not saying that telepaths in general aren't treated badly or are unsympathetic. Its just Byron, and to a lesser extent his group. Telepaths deserve better treatment, but acting like byron has been acting does not reflect well on them, to the point where even the general treatment of telepaths isn't a good excuse for him.

Also, as I understood it, aren't they "down below" because of the fact that the Psi Cops would catch them if they were more out in the open? That makes their living conditions something Sheridan can't change, since he can't change what would happen if the Psi Corp found out about a large group of rogue telepaths on the station. Anyway, on to the episodes I just watched.

A view from the Gallery - I wasn't sure how the gimmick of the episode would go (with the whole episode following two maintenance guys) but it turned out really well. The guys were entertaining, and seeing the story from their perspective was cool. Lochley is really annoying. I wish Sheridan had just told her to shut up about the escape pods. The maintenance guys conversation about not knowing what the floor sweeper thing did was funny. Actually, I was wrong. Lochley isn't just annoying, she's a complete b%^&h. "I'm going to tell Sheridan to find someone else". Really? Does she think sheridan will side with her over Garibaldi? I liked the conversation between the maintenance guys about how different things worked, like jump gates. It was interesting to see them go through a fight and end up with the telepaths. Londo/G'kar's talk about their childhoods was good, as was the interactions between Delenn and the maintenance guys. Overall, this was a great episode.

Learning Curve - Lochley is a moron. I don't think I've typed one thing about her that has been positive. If there ever turns out to be anything about her thats not a negative, it will probably be cause for a celebration. Of course she was on Clark's side, and gave the generic stupid explanation. If the whole earth military thought like her, clark would still be president and murdering people/generally acting like a dictator. It was the responsibility of people to fight people like Clark, not just blindly follow the orders, even legal ones, of a man who was obviously doing a lot of evil. I'm thinking now that sheridan just got her appointed to B5 to screw with Garibaldi. It surely wasn't for her intelligence, leadership skills or integrity. The gang lord wasn't very smart. The B5 staff would have ended up stopping him pretty quickly anyway, even if the rangers hadn't gotten involved. I knew the rangers train in a lot of fighting styles, but I didn't know that they took the lessons of batman to heart I hope Garibaldi finds a way to screw with Lochley. After the end of this episode, I'm pretty sure that Lochley/Sheridan used to be in a relationship. Why he'd get his ex-GF, now an idiotic Clark supporter, to run B5 I don't know, but that seems to be what they're implying. Still, overall this was a good episode.

 

[Gov Kodos]

I do like Lockley, but it's a shame there wasn't any development of the character discovering what was really at stake from outside the perspective she had in the war. She was the good Prussian officer during the war. The government are idiots, but you don't act against them. She never got to learn about the Shadows, Psi Corp, Clark's involvement in assassinating Santiago or any other larger issues. She viewed things from her desk and followed orders with perfect correctness. The kind of officer that corrupt ones avoid and so she didn't get into situations like Sheridan and co. I'd guess he chose her as she'd be seen a good Earth Force officer by the brass on Earth, but untouched by any controversy connected to Clark so she wouldn't be aggravating to the colonies on that score.

 

[Reverend]

Telepaths deserve better treatment, but acting like byron has been acting does not reflect well on them, to the point where even the general treatment of telepaths isn't a good excuse for him.

Why should Byron or the others care about galactic politics? So the Drazi are ambushing the Rangers. So what? Mundanes killing mundanes happens all the time. Telling the Rangers only means they'll have the opportunity to kill the Drazi first. From the telepath's PoV, it makes no difference and regardless, they're tired of being used by people who see them only as weapons and inquisitors. It's not their fight, it's not their responsibility, it's not their problem and they have more than enough of their own.

Have the Rangers gone out of their way to liberate them from Psi Corps? Have the Drazi given them reason to side against them? Why should they pick sides at all?

Also, as I understood it, aren't they "down below" because of the fact that the Psi Cops would catch them if they were more out in the open? That makes their living conditions something Sheridan can't change, since he can't change what would happen if the Psi Corp found out about a large group of rogue telepaths on the station. Anyway, on to the episodes I just watched.

Not at all. Babylon 5 may still an independent state but it's part of the ISA as is the Earth Alliance and under the rules of the ISA, the rights of member worlds to govern their own people as they see fit must be respected. Like it or not slavery is still legal on Centauri worlds, Gaim queens are free to eat their own advisors as they see fit and yes, these telepaths are still EA citizens so as the station is under EF command, they still fall under Psi Corps jurisdiction.

In short, where they are on the station makes no difference whatsoever. Legally speaking, these people belong to Psi Corps and hiding in downbelow won't deter a Psi Cop and a squad of bloodhouds from hunting down a group of blips. These guys are used to hunting down lone blips hiding in Earth cities and off-world colonies where there's more than enough places to hide and billions of people to blend in with. A mere five mile long tin can with nowhere to run but hard vacuum and a population made up of just as many aliens as humans? Child's play.

The reason they were given a place in downbelow and not somewhere else was because it's cheap, convenient and makes them accessible if their services are needed somewhere down the line. It's not like the colony is being kept a secret. Whole groups of rogue telepaths are arriving through customs for all to see.

As for Lochley...try not to paint things in such black and white terms (like Garibaldi does.) There were a LOT of EF officers in the civil war who didn't side with Sheridan and it wasn't because they were all morons or cartoon villains. Most weren't in possession of all the facts and didn't have the same view of events as we the viewers did. Even the crew of Sheridan's old ship, people who knew and respected him began to buy into the propaganda...until the orders came down to attack civilian targets. Even then, the decision to desert had to be put to a vote.

Though it's never fully explained, in Lochley's case it appears that she was the CO of some backwater posting; a small colony or some-such. As a result, most of what was going on would have been pretty distant since her only sources of information would have been ISN and whatever intelligence reports Earth Central might have sent her. So unless she saw with her own eyes a VERY good reason to do otherwise (like, for example receiving illegal orders to murder unarmed civilians), her duty was to stay at her post and look after the people under her command.

 

[Booji]

I completely agree with Kirk regarding the telepaths. How it's written, they are totally unsympathetic. They remind me of hipsters in Philly.