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Far Beyond the Stars....

I just hated this episode.
I hate that they made a black character 400 years into the future that is still concerned over the issues of race that began some 600 years ago. Have we not gotten over this by now.

Yes I know it was a statement on current issues but....Good grief it wasn't the first time they did it in DS9. (The Fontaine program issues and Sisko) How do you justify a black man who's 400 years removed from racism to still have it at the fore front of his mind?


"getting over" doesn't mean forgetting and refusing to talk about. From the current day, slavery and the slave trade in the U.S. are long in the past, yet events that happen long ago continue to have ripple effects.

I don't see these kinds of reactions when Picard is shown as influenced by his French heritage or O'Brien by his Irish heritage, etc.
 
I just hated this episode.
I hate that they made a black character 400 years into the future that is still concerned over the issues of race that began some 600 years ago. Have we not gotten over this by now.

Yes I know it was a statement on current issues but....Good grief it wasn't the first time they did it in DS9. (The Fontaine program issues and Sisko) How do you justify a black man who's 400 years removed from racism to still have it at the fore front of his mind?

People think about that stuff all the time. Opression is just part of some people's history. Like the Jewish people for instance. They tell the story of how they were enslaved thousands of years ago every year at Passover so they never forget. Who's to say in the future cultural roots aren't important despite how long ago they may have been?

This is in my top ten DS9 episodes. I actually really liked Avery Brooks' acting in this one. I feel like that's how I would have reacted in the same situation.
 
"getting over" doesn't mean forgetting and refusing to talk about. From the current day, slavery and the slave trade in the U.S. are long in the past, yet events that happen long ago continue to have ripple effects.

Holding a grudge on holographic program because it doesn't depict history accurately and that bitter attitude he had toward that period is not getting over it. At least not in my book. It's beyond realistic unless blacks are still suffering as they are still suffering now from discrimination.

Today blacks still have a problem with equality and it's rooted in the animosity whites had for being forced to let go their slaves by government order. The end of slavery just turned out to be the beginning, massacres in the south claimed many lives, the separate but equal inequality, the discrimination and oppression...the hate was so focused that America taught to hate on others and the cycle became accumulative, denying them education to counter their lackings of 400 hundred years of oppression would have gone a long way. But instead we/they were driven in poverty in large number just through oppression alone...so obviously crime comes next and even though today blacks are pretty much causing their own woes with the culture they've molded in hip-hop and gangsta rap to that as of today blacks represent a marginal fraction of the population YET Blacks have the largest numbers in prison over 2 million, in nearly every state from every other racial group.

There are certain things that Roddenberry didn't grasp or wasn't bothered with and this was one of them. This one piecemeal episode can't hope to describe or even entertain how we got from this Utopia from where they were in the 60's or 80's. They just sort of glossed over it. Just like everything else Trek does, it didn't really take it seriously and I didn't really appreciate them playing around with such a serious issue like racism. At least TOS assuaged a direct commentary on the issue.
 
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"getting over" doesn't mean forgetting and refusing to talk about. From the current day, slavery and the slave trade in the U.S. are long in the past, yet events that happen long ago continue to have ripple effects.

Holding a grudge on holographic program because it doesn't depict history accurately and that bitter attitude he had toward that period is not getting over it. At least not in my book. It's beyond realistic unless blacks are still suffering as they are still suffering now from discrimination.

Today blacks still have a problem with equality and it's rooted in the animosity whites had for being forced to let go their slaves by government order. The end of slavery just turned out to be the beginning, massacres in the south claimed many lives, the separate but equal inequality, the discrimination and oppression...the hate was so focused that America taught to hate on others and the cycle became accumulative, denying them education to counter their lackings of 400 hundred years of oppression would have gone a long way. But instead we/they were driven in poverty in large number just through oppression alone...so obviously crime comes next and even though today blacks are pretty much causing their own woes with the culture they've molded in hip-hop and gangsta rap to that as of today blacks represent a marginal fraction of the population YET Blacks have the largest numbers in prison over 2 million, in nearly every state from every other racial group.

There are certain things that Roddenberry didn't grasp or wasn't bothered with and this was one of them. This one piecemeal episode can't hope to describe or even entertain how we got from this Utopia from where they were in the 60's or 80's. They just sort of glossed over it. Just like everything else Trek does, it didn't really take it seriously and I didn't really appreciate them playing around with such a serious issue like racism. At least TOS assuaged a direct commentary on the issue.


What "bitter attitude" did he show? ONE EPISODE, and moreover, his point was an accurate one! Sisko didn't spend his time ranting about past wrongs done to Blacks for the whole series. And yet folks on this board STILL act like it was so ridiculous to even bring it up. As I mentioned, no one thinks it's a sign of "lack of progress" that Picard identifies as a Frenchman or O'Brien identifies as an Irishman.


And this episode can be taken a lot of ways. Yes it was about racism, but you can even set that aside and look at it as a show connected to the Prophets and the Dominion War, and it still works.
 
Holding a grudge on holographic program because it doesn't depict history accurately and that bitter attitude he had toward that period is not getting over it. At least not in my book. It's beyond realistic unless blacks are still suffering as they are still suffering now from discrimination.

How is the treatment of the Bajorians by the Cardassians any different than Black slavery or the holocaust of the Jews? It would be unrealistic to be around that and not associate Vic's with the similarities of abuse done to your own culture/race.

However, the writers & Brookes were smart enough to address Sisko's issues with Kassidy's counter arguement. So it's not like they threw that issue out there without a just and balanced answer. If Trek is supposed address issues of social injustice, then they did so with this issue asspect of a racial issue.

I just hated this episode.
I hate that they made a black character 400 years into the future that is still concerned over the issues of race that began some 600 years ago. Have we not gotten over this by now.

Then how do you feel about Sisko hanging Africa art on the walls of his quarters?
 
How is the treatment of the Bajorians by the Cardassians any different than Black slavery or the holocaust of the Jews? It would be unrealistic to be around that and not associate Vic's with the similarities of abuse done to your own culture/race.

I feel as if I've just been insulted.
Are you really comparing fictional conflagrations with the true horrors of reality? If you don't know the profound differences between them then who am I to presume to educate you.

You do realize that DS9 was merely an exorcise in steretypes? The Cardassians were a stereotype for the ultimate evil from their cultural smug superiority to their absolutely ridiculous "justice" system. The Bajorans the Klingons and the Ferengi...they were all extremely dedicated to their stereotype which made DS9 like a childs commentary on life. Too difficult to take it seriously.

It's not like the depiction of Klingons in TUC where each Klingon had not just a different personality but a different look and perspective, there was variety.

However, the writers & Brookes were smart enough to address Sisko's issues with Kassidy's counter arguement. So it's not like they threw that issue out there without a just and balanced answer. If Trek is supposed address issues of social injustice, then they did so with this issue asspect of a racial issue.

Eh...creating a ridiculous issue and then having a character address it in dialogue is never smart it's a redundancy on the ridiculous. Shatner did the same thing in TFF. Having peoples "pain" taken away with one Sybok treatment and gaining a devoted follower is ridiculous and even as Kirk says it in his scene it still doesn't justify the plot device. Sisko's reaction to Vic was extremely irrational from what one would expect from an individual who learn rather than experienced the rigors of oppression.

Then how do you feel about Sisko hanging Africa art on the walls of his quarters?

Is there something wrong with African art?
I don't understand the point of the question.



What "bitter attitude" did he show? ONE EPISODE, and moreover, his point was an accurate one! [/QUOTE]

I don't understand. Is that a rhetorical question. You're kinda answering it your self. In one episode he displays an irrational dislike of Vic because the program doesn't depict race accurately. It was bigotry. He was irrated with people spending time and caring about a hologram when he's done the same thing in previous episodes.



Sisko didn't spend his time ranting about past wrongs done to Blacks for the whole series. And yet folks on this board STILL act like it was so ridiculous to even bring it up. As I mentioned, no one thinks it's a sign of "lack of progress" that Picard identifies as a Frenchman or O'Brien identifies as an Irishman.

I still don't know what that has to do with anything.
What point are you trying to make? It seems far off in left field. Do you really understand the issue of hate and oppression, are you trying to understand or is it that you don't wish to be dictated the detrimental realities? There are so few things that could actually be compared the Black and Jewish Oppression even in real life. What do the French and Irish have to do with that level of oppression?

Are you somehow under the attitude that to be black therefore means one has some sort of emotional connection to wrongs 400 years ago? Do you actually think that blacks are proud of being repressed like Picard is proud to be a Frenchman? Should O'Brien now become part of the IRA?

(Facepalm)
 
I just hated this episode.
I hate that they made a black character 400 years into the future that is still concerned over the issues of race that began some 600 years ago. Have we not gotten over this by now.

Yes I know it was a statement on current issues but....Good grief it wasn't the first time they did it in DS9. (The Fontaine program issues and Sisko) How do you justify a black man who's 400 years removed from racism to still have it at the fore front of his mind?

"getting over" doesn't mean forgetting and refusing to talk about. From the current day, slavery and the slave trade in the U.S. are long in the past, yet events that happen long ago continue to have ripple effects.

Very, very correct. To add to your post, this book right here: http://www.amazon.com/Disposable-People-Slavery-Global-Economy/dp/0520224639

...discusses how legal slavery from 19th century Americas and Europe turned into a modern, 21st century form of slavery that affects an estimated 27 million slaves (some estimates go as high as 300 million) currently in existence all over the world, some of whom are very much still in the US. The fact that it's illegal makes finding and rescuing slaves even more difficult, and human trafficking continues to be a major, but highly unrecognized problem, and still very much along racial, class, and imperialistic lines. But a major obstacle in combatting this new slavery is the popular perception that slavery ended with the US Civil War. That number of 27 million up there? That's more than all the slaves that were ever traded between the time of Columbus and the US Civil War -- and that's the low estimate. The book was also made into a film that won a Peabody and two Emmys.

If something hasn't disappeared in 150 years, what makes us think it'll completely disappear in the next 300 years? Frankly, it's issues like that that require episodes like this one. Indeed, in the 24th century slavery's probably gone from the face of the Earth, but it's still alive and well in Trek in other parts of the galaxy, like the Remans. There's still racial animosity between the Bajorans and Cardassians, but that conflict can also become the basis for healing, too.

Are you somehow under the attitude that to be black therefore means one has some sort of emotional connection to wrongs 400 years ago? Do you actually think that blacks are proud of being repressed like Picard is proud to be a Frenchman? Should O'Brien now become part of the IRA?

(Facepalm)

I don't know about the French, but for a long time the Irish were equated amongst Blacks and Asians as the lowest racial class in the US, many of them dying in the industrial or railroad sectors because of straight-up racist practices and neglect of care.

Did they suffer as much as Blacks during the era of slavery? Were immigration bans imposed on them like Asians? I don't know, but a very large problem in racial discourse is a sort of cultural relativism, saying that because one suffered more we should focus on them, as if proportions matter to those being overlooked. In the end, shouldn't ALL racial injustice be corrected? Blacks, Asians, Irish, et all, suffered because of institutionalized, authoritarian abuse of power along race lines -- and that's a major connector. It's not a matter of "Who suffered the most?" but rather "How do we stop this from happening ever again?" And we're still a LONG ways off from that.

It's interesting that in Measure of a Man, Picard couldn't quite understand the concept that mass-producing Datas as tools was slavery until Guinan pointed it out to him. So even then, there's still hints of that mindset in enlightened, advanced 24th century humans, and awareness to that mindset ultimately steers Picard down the right path. If it isn't Black slaves, it could have been Android slaves. We already had EMH slaves. Where does it stop?
 
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Sisko's reaction to Vic was extremely irrational from what one would expect from an individual who learn rather than experienced the rigors of oppression.

Damn that Spike Lee and his "Do The Right Thing."
 
How is the treatment of the Bajorians by the Cardassians any different than Black slavery or the holocaust of the Jews? It would be unrealistic to be around that and not associate Vic's with the similarities of abuse done to your own culture/race.

I feel as if I've just been insulted.
Are you really comparing fictional conflagrations with the true horrors of reality? If you don't know the profound differences between them then who am I to presume to educate you.

You do realize that DS9 was merely an exorcise in steretypes? The Cardassians were a stereotype for the ultimate evil from their cultural smug superiority to their absolutely ridiculous "justice" system. The Bajorans the Klingons and the Ferengi...they were all extremely dedicated to their stereotype which made DS9 like a childs commentary on life. Too difficult to take it seriously.

It's not like the depiction of Klingons in TUC where each Klingon had not just a different personality but a different look and perspective, there was variety.

However, the writers & Brookes were smart enough to address Sisko's issues with Kassidy's counter arguement. So it's not like they threw that issue out there without a just and balanced answer. If Trek is supposed address issues of social injustice, then they did so with this issue asspect of a racial issue.
Eh...creating a ridiculous issue and then having a character address it in dialogue is never smart it's a redundancy on the ridiculous. Shatner did the same thing in TFF. Having peoples "pain" taken away with one Sybok treatment and gaining a devoted follower is ridiculous and even as Kirk says it in his scene it still doesn't justify the plot device. Sisko's reaction to Vic was extremely irrational from what one would expect from an individual who learn rather than experienced the rigors of oppression.



Is there something wrong with African art?
I don't understand the point of the question.



What "bitter attitude" did he show? ONE EPISODE, and moreover, his point was an accurate one!

I don't understand. Is that a rhetorical question. You're kinda answering it your self. In one episode he displays an irrational dislike of Vic because the program doesn't depict race accurately. It was bigotry. He was irrated with people spending time and caring about a hologram when he's done the same thing in previous episodes.



Sisko didn't spend his time ranting about past wrongs done to Blacks for the whole series. And yet folks on this board STILL act like it was so ridiculous to even bring it up. As I mentioned, no one thinks it's a sign of "lack of progress" that Picard identifies as a Frenchman or O'Brien identifies as an Irishman.
I still don't know what that has to do with anything.
What point are you trying to make? It seems far off in left field. Do you really understand the issue of hate and oppression, are you trying to understand or is it that you don't wish to be dictated the detrimental realities? There are so few things that could actually be compared the Black and Jewish Oppression even in real life. What do the French and Irish have to do with that level of oppression?

Are you somehow under the attitude that to be black therefore means one has some sort of emotional connection to wrongs 400 years ago? Do you actually think that blacks are proud of being repressed like Picard is proud to be a Frenchman? Should O'Brien now become part of the IRA?

(Facepalm)[/QUOTE]


um, Sisko showed "bigotry" toward a hologram because he argued that the holodeck program was representing a historical inaccuracy that was whitewashing(no pun intended) an important aspect of that period?


Are you one of those folks who thinks its "reverse racism" whenever a Black person even brings up an issue of how race continues to impact culture? Because if you are, then this is going to be a pointless argument.


Let me spell out my point about Picard and O'Brien's identification with their heritages, because apparently I'm not getting through:


You and others seem to have an "issue" with Sisko identifying as a Black man in the 24th century, with all of the knowledge and awareness of a past legacy of prejudice and opression against his people that entails.


Yet Picard and O'Brien identify as part of old Earth cultures/ethnicities as well, but that is never brought up as an issue.


If you're point is "on 24th century Earth, people should just identify as Humans, and leave the social categories behind," THAT'S FINE, but be consistent about it! Don't get bent out of shape about Sisko strongly identifying as a Black person but then not give a crap about Picard, O'Brien, Scotty, Chekov, etc. and all these other characters identifying as part of a culture or ethnicity.
 
American Indians, in TNG, DS9 AND VOY strongly identify with their own culture and ethnicity.

But more revealing, they are still shown to be extremely conscious of atrocities that occurred even longer than 400 years ago.

This was without any fanfare or serious debate.

I can understand the logic of humans having evolved and put an evil past behind them. Classic Trek said it happen, so the characters have to abide by it.

However, if Chakotay or any Indian saw a holodeck recreation of the 16th century that was rewritten or downplayed any atrocities, wouldn't they have reacted the same way, perhaps worse even?

Or the Bajorans, Cardassians, or the Human's 22nd century time period era?
 
It's only normal that Sisko would respond to Vic the way he did. Because it's Star Trek!! You know, the show that Gene Roddenberry created as a mirror to today's society?? To make us think about certain aspects that are relevant today? And anyone thinking that both racisme and slavery are not an issue today, is living in a dream.

I life in the Netherlands, where I feel racisme is still something we deal with everyday, with a lot of immigrants coming in our country. And the comments you here some people make about these immigrants.......


You do realize that DS9 was merely an exorcise in steretypes? The Cardassians were a stereotype for the ultimate evil from their cultural smug superiority to their absolutely ridiculous "justice" system. The Bajorans the Klingons and the Ferengi...they were all extremely dedicated to their stereotype which made DS9 like a childs commentary on life. Too difficult to take it seriously.

And they had to be. Not to make it childish, but to make it clear that, even though all these races are very different from eachother and that there are some issues every now and then, in the end we learn to live together and work together.

It's Star Trek!! It's not supposed to be real! How can you make a show that's set in the 24th century authentic, when we don't know what life will be like then?
Like I said, it was made to bring up, amongst others, social issues we deal with on a daily basis.
 
There are so few things that could actually be compared the Black and Jewish Oppression even in real life. What do the French and Irish have to do with that level of oppression?

Seriously? Do you know Irish history? Find a good copy of A Modest Proposal with notes on what Swift was satirizing.
 
Holding a grudge on holographic program because it doesn't depict history accurately and that bitter attitude he had toward that period is not getting over it. At least not in my book. It's beyond realistic unless blacks are still suffering as they are still suffering now from discrimination.

You make it sound like Sisko was walking around with a chip on his shoulder, which isn't the case. He never went out of his way to chastise anyone for using Vic's. But when someone asked him to participate in the program, he said no and gave his reasons. His objection was perfectly reasonable -- he doesn't like whitewashing history by presenting a romanticized version of events where the bad aspects are completely overlooked.

Today blacks still have a problem with equality and it's rooted in the animosity whites had for being forced to let go their slaves by government order.

Racism isn't just about oppression and discrimination. It includes ignoring the experiences of non-privileged groups. If you follow non-Star Trek SF blogs, there's been a good deal of debate over the last year about steampunk and the way it portrays a super awesome version of the Victorian era while ignoring the historical reality that Victorian society was built on the suffering of millions of people, and a super awesome Victorian era would be even more so. Steampunk authors are essentially saying, "Yeah, those fellows with dark skin in Africa and India don't matter, because airships are cool."

Sisko recognizes this problem in Vic's program and sees it as the vestige of racism it is, and he objects.
 
I drifted away from DS9 in the later seasons, but I happened to catch this "Far Beyond The Stars" and I thought it was a standout episode. It effectively illustrates some of the differences between what Benny's life could have been like in the 1950s and Sisko's place in the 24th century. I really liked this episode and I loved seeing the characters as they really are in different roles. And setting the historical scenes within the offices of a '50s era SF magazine was quite clever I thought.
 
Besides, didn't Gene Roddenberry create Trek to talk about social & political issues that couldn't be openly talked about on TV? Doesn't Sisko's comment due just that?

It doesn't matter thart Trek take place in the furture, it always has dealt with several issues we deal with today.
 
I also came across something - I mentioned a comic that was banned for almost the same reason as the story. The final panel the hero takes off his helmet ...

EC_Judgementday.jpg


I like the episode now more, as the comic was banned in 1953 and it also shows on how far we have come, "Far beyond the stars", like the distant stars in the last panel of the comic.
 
I also came across something - I mentioned a comic that was banned for almost the same reason as the story. The final panel the hero takes off his helmet ...

EC_Judgementday.jpg


I like the episode now more, as the comic was banned in 1953 and it also shows on how far we have come, "Far beyond the stars", like the distant stars in the last panel of the comic.


That's interesting, good find, any idea what the comic was/is called?
 
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