Endgame's End

[Broccoli]

I was fine with "Endgame" the way it is. Given the story they wanted to tell, I don't know how the reunion aspect would have fit in. Or at least I don't know how it would have fit in well.

The only thing I would have changed would be to linger on the final shot (Voyager approaching Earth) longer, kinda like how they had the long pull-back for DS9's last shot.

edit: Oh yeah, and probably pitch the C/7 relationship. But, if they did that, Chakotay wouldn't have anything to do, but I guess that would make it business as usual...

 

[The Borg Queen]

homoaffectional said:

Charles Trip Tucker III said:
"Human Error" and "Natural Law" are preludes to the Chakotay/Seven romance. It was not a last minute addition. I'm not saying it was executed properly, but the intent is clearly there.

Yeah, and there have been hints about the possibility of C/7 throughout the entire four seasons that Jeri Ryan/Seven was on the show, starting as far back as "Scorpion, Part II".

"Bring that female Drone to the ready room... for some sweet sweet love..."

 

[Squiggy]

^^ Yes. No need to be an ass. But that isn't how Star Trek Operated. It would take day to get some of the crew's families to Earth.

^Not from other planets. Not all the families lived on Earth.

 

[homoaffectional]

The Borg Queen said:

homoaffectional said:

Charles Trip Tucker III said:
"Human Error" and "Natural Law" are preludes to the Chakotay/Seven romance. It was not a last minute addition. I'm not saying it was executed properly, but the intent is clearly there.

Yeah, and there have been hints about the possibility of C/7 throughout the entire four seasons that Jeri Ryan/Seven was on the show, starting as far back as "Scorpion, Part II".

"Bring that female Drone to the ready room... for some sweet sweet love..."

I was thinking more how Chakotay was able to relate to Seven's humanity, and how he became *intimately* aware of her memories and feelings as a little girl when he used the neural link to distract her long enough to stop her from contacting the Collective, but I guess the joke is acceptable.

 

[homoaffectional]

Squiggyfm said:
^^ Yes. No need to be an ass. But that isn't how Star Trek Operated. It would take day to get some of the crew's families to Earth.

Not being an "ass", just pointing out that it was very feasible for them to make it happen to satisfy the audience, and yes it would take days, but there have been plenty of episodes where there were *months* between the bulk of the episode and the very end, "Author, Author" being the most recent before "Endgame", not to mention "Friendship One", which was slightly different, but still another example of gaps between segments of the ep.

 

[The Borg Queen]

"Voyager: One Year Later."

 

[Brolan]

The pressing question for me is why didn't the Timeship Relativity come along and stop Janeway from changing history just like it did for Braxton in the Voyager episode Relativity ?

As mentioned in Shattered Voyager will have as big an impact on the Delta quadrant as it has on Voyager. Now years of history in the Delta quadrant will be undone. Why was it not prevented?

 

[Nebusj]

It was to leave a plot thread dangling for the Voyager movie, obviously, which opens with the crew discovering themselves inexplicably back in the Delta Quadrant, the result of a temporal anomaly created by species which would have been saved had ``Endgame'' not zipped them to home too soon, so now Janeway's gang has to find a way to undo the anomaly, and yet set up a timeline where the things they would have done get done by other means before they get returned to the post-``Endgame'' timeline by the chroniton ripples. Gripping story, I assure you.

 

[Charles Trip Tucker III]

Brolan said:
The pressing question for me is why didn't the Timeship Relativity come along and stop Janeway from changing history just like it did for Braxton in the Voyager episode Relativity ?

Admiral Janeway's timeline ceased to exist when she went back in time from 2403 to 2377, so it would be impossible for the Relativity to exist in the future of Admiral Janeway's timeline.

 

[Orac Zen]

Kenobi said:
Disagree. The show was about the journey, not the destination. It ended as it should have. But I agree that the C/7 romance was oddly placed.

Kenobi said:
[...] But there was no story going on at home in Voyager, so no resolution was necessary. Voyager only told the story of the journey. The obstacle was getting home, and arriving home was the resolution.

At long last, someone who agrees with me about "Endgame". I can't add a thing to these posts; they sum up my viewpoint very neatly. Thanks. :thumbsup:

 

[kimc]

Charles Trip Tucker III said:
"Human Error" and "Natural Law" are preludes to the Chakotay/Seven romance. It was not a last minute addition. I'm not saying it was executed properly, but the intent is clearly there.

"Human Error" was supposed to be the beginning of the end for the Seven character (see above post) so the episode was supposed to be more about the tragedy of her life than the beginning of any romance. As for "Natural Law", Beltran and Ryan were given order to have no romantic chemistry - orders which they executed flawlessly.

homoaffectional said:
Yeah, and there have been hints about the possibility of C/7 throughout the entire four seasons that Jeri Ryan/Seven was on the show, starting as far back as "Scorpion, Part II".

I'd be interested in seeing some links. I watched during the entire seven years and while there were rumors once the plot of "Human Error" got leaked the only mention I ever saw of C/7 was a satire on "thinks least likely to happen on Voyager". Janeway gives up cofee, C/7 as secret lovers, etc.

 

[AuntKate]

I agree, kimc (surprise!). I remember reading that the "Human Error" script was intended to be the beginning of the tragic end of Seven and her sacrifice to get the ship home, not the beginning of a real romance between her and Chakotay. As far as we know, Chakotay was completely unaware of his holodeck doppelganger. In fact, if you can remember to separate the "real" Chakotay from the "holo" Chakotay in that episode and watch his interactions with Seven, you can see that he is quite put out with her--nothing close to any affection or special regard visible.

And, while some believe that "Natural Law" is a romantic prelude to "Endgame," I have to say that they must be watching a different version than I am. There is no special concern or solicitousness from Seven toward Chakotay when he's injured, and Chakotay is mostly talking down to her the whole time--as if she has no understanding of his more sensitive anthropological skills. And, I swear that I remember reading that the two actors were told not to play into the romantic connection at all in "Natural Law," which is odd considering that there is just one episode separating it from "Endgame."

Like you, I was watching and keeping up on Voyager when it originally aired back in 2001. What amazed me was that the writers went with C/7 even though the entire fandom seemed against it. And clearly, the whole idea took hold after "Human Error" was done. Here is a TrekToday article from May 1, 2001, that shows what I'm talking about: http://www.treknation.com/articles/unnatural_law.shtml

Like C/7 or not, the truth of the matter is that all bets are off with the "new" future. Will they continue to be a couple? Will they marry? Your guess is as good as mine, but Seven pretty clearly has cold feet as Endgame comes to a close.

 

[SpatialDude]

I really enjoyed the finale but I really felt emotionally left out when we didn't get to see their real homecoming. We never got to see Janeway meet Mark again. We never got to see the Maquis crew deal with their crimes. We never got to see Harry meet his parents or his girlfriend. We never got to see Tuvok meet his family. Lastly, we never got to see Tom meet his dad and heal their rift.

 

[Charles Trip Tucker III]

That would make a boring episode.

 

[Blueicus]

Actually, Tom did see his dad, didn't he? During the final seconds of the episode? Or am I confusing this with another episode?

And I have to agree that there seemed to be no buildup between Seven and Chakotay until the final episode... and they seemed to be in a casual working relationship at best.

Also, I assumed that Janeway would hunt Mark and his new hussie of a wife down and phaser them both... or maybe I'm just out in left field here.

 

[exodus]

Charles Trip Tucker III said:
That would make a boring episode.

Ok dude, we got it.

 

[homoaffectional]

kimc said:

homoaffectional said:
Yeah, and there have been hints about the possibility of C/7 throughout the entire four seasons that Jeri Ryan/Seven was on the show, starting as far back as "Scorpion, Part II".

I'd be interested in seeing some links. I watched during the entire seven years and while there were rumors once the plot of "Human Error" got leaked the only mention I ever saw of C/7 was a satire on "thinks least likely to happen on Voyager". Janeway gives up cofee, C/7 as secret lovers, etc.

The hints were there if you knew what to look for or were willing to look past the. Starfleet personnel are trained to keep things professional, so if you were looking for Chakotay to declare his undying love for Annika outside of the Cargo Bay every night or something, you wouldn't see it. I don't know what you mean by 'links'... if you mean episodes, there were numerous ones. For example, for someone who wanted to jettison Seven from a cargo bay, he seemed to be able to get through to her long enough to endure a shared "surge". And again, for someone who wanted to get rid of her, Chakotay seemed to stand up for 7's sake countlessly and risk B'Elanna's wrath. Some might say that he was just doing what he could to ensure 7's integration into the crew, but when you factor in the fact that Chakotay immediately pursued a relationship within moments of 7's revealing her interest in him, you have to wonder. A skeptic like yourself would no doubt discount that, but I'm not inclined to worry about the fact that your feelings obviously differ on the matter.

But if you are so obsessed with links, I suggest you take the entire phrase "What C/7 Has Going For It", keep the quotes and put it into Google and draw your own conclusions.

 

[kimc]

AuntKate said:
As far as we know, Chakotay was completely unaware of his holodeck doppelganger. In fact, if you can remember to separate the "real" Chakotay from the "holo" Chakotay in that episode and watch his interactions with Seven, you can see that he is quite put out with her--nothing close to any affection or special regard visible.

That brings up the use of someone's image in a holodeck program without their knowledge. In the TNG episode with Barclay where he was using the likelinesses of all the senior staff they were pretty miffed when his holo-addition came to light. It's a shame we didn't get to see Chakotay's reaction to Seven playing with his likeness. Also, I find it ironic that while Seven had a full-fledged holo-addiction a la Barclay it was not treated as such.

AuntKate said:
Like C/7 or not, the truth of the matter is that all bets are off with the "new" future. Will they continue to be a couple? Will they marry? Your guess is as good as mine, but Seven pretty clearly has cold feet as Endgame comes to a close.

Personally I don't think they make it to spacedock but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the thousands of post-Endgame fanfics.

homoaffectional said:
But if you are so obsessed with links, I suggest you take the entire phrase "What C/7 Has Going For It", keep the quotes and put it into Google and draw your own conclusions.

Not necessary. What you're referring to was covered in the article AuntKate is referring to and is clearly a reaction to the "Human Error" rumors. I would also point out that if you read the article the author does not think C/7 was a good idea but was trying to present a balanced view. I would certainly not call the article pro-C/7.

 

[homoaffectional]

kimc said:I would certainly not call the article pro-C/7.

Um... did I say it was? I was talking about the part of it where it referred to episodes, which is all I give a crap about. I don't care about who *WANTS* Chakotay and Seven to be a couple, including you, I might add. I'm merely pointing out where in previous Voyager episodes lended themselves to foreshadowing a C/7 involvement. OMG your bias *against* C/7 is so extremely pervasive in all your posts, it's like I should just ignore anything you type from here on in. Which I think I will, but before I do, I will just point out again, that all I care about is what actually *happens* in Voyager's TV episodes, not every person that registers a domain and uses it to soapbox about everything. I love how you've somehow turned me into an advocate for Chakotay/7 and then feel the need to point out an article that lists the pros and *cons*, as if I care about either. Give me a break. And finally, I'll point out, that Chakotay and Seven *WERE* a couple on the final episode, something I personally could care less about, any more than the writers and producers clearly care about your opinion, so just consider that. -- Signing off --

 

[kimc]

homoaffectional said:
OMG your bias *against* C/7 is so extremely pervasive in all your posts,

I won't deny I think C/7 sucks. It's not the only thing I post about though. Sometimes I post about coffee.

homoaffectional said:
it's like I should just ignore anything you type from here on in.

Works for me!