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Spoilers The War Between the Land and the Sea discussion thread

How do you rate The War Between the Land and Sea?


  • Total voters
    12
@The Grinch Doctor I do think the next showrunner shouldn't be a fan (or shouldn't be such an old school fan). Look at what Gilroy did with Andor, hell, look what Meyer accomplished with Trek back in the day.
Two excellent examples. I agree that the next doesn't inherently have to be a fan but I still think that perhaps one of the Big Finish veterans could be ideal. Emphasis on could.

I can't see the reins being handed to someone who has zero TV experience though.
I agree with that which is why I would like to see the division of labor return. I really think that's a major fault of the show in modern times which has been an issue for each of the showrunners with only Davies handling it well the first time around.
 
Look at what Gilroy did with Andor
Fair enough as it's hard to argue with Andor's quality. But a fan would have known what the stun setting on a blaster looks like. The editors of TROS not being fans is why that movie acts like it doesn't know the difference between ion cannons and turbolasers.
 
Did they really need to?
No, they don't need to be, but I'm the kind of person who is driven nuts when they make these kind of changes to familiar elements of franchise. It still bugs me that we never got an explanation for why Discover Season 1's Klingons were so different from the TOS movies - Enterprise Klingons. Even though I ended up enjoying what the show did with them, I still spent the entire run of the series hoping for an explanation. And a small part of me is still hoping that Strange New Worlds will address it at some point in the last two seasons, especially since they went back to the old Klingons.
And so, once again, the RTD2 era of Doctor Who shows us that Davies needs to go period. He's in the midst of what can best be described as the mother of all mid-life crises, but because the Beeb don't have any better options, they have no other choice but to keep him aboard.

Even an American showrunner, such as She-Ra and Babylon 5's J. Michael Strazcynski, could have a much better finger on the pulse of the Doctor Whoniverse than Davies does at the moment.

JMS is not the answer.

As a big JMS fan, I agree.
If we really want to go with an American, then I have to wonder, if he hadn't been outed as a major asshole, if Joss Whedon might be a good fit.
 
I don't think anyone seriously wants an American showrunner. JMS simply just keeps coming up because he's a renowned fan and briefly but publicly mused the idea of him running the show.

There are far better options, British, American, or otherwise than Whedon, even pre-revelations...and that was ages ago.
 
Yeah, he was just the only person I could think of who does that kind of lighter fun style, but can still get into the deeper issues, which is how I've always seen Who.
 
This show had some good stuff, mainly in the opener and the finale. But "inconsistent" is definitely the word to describe it. It was like RTD and McTighe didn't actually talk to each other when writing it. Stuff would be introduced then dropped the next episode (or in the same episode.) There was one scene where Salt briefly turned male then turned back again. Obviously I knw that some amphibians can change their sex (I've seen Jurassic Park!) but what was the point of it happening when it's never mentioned again? I thought maybe her and Barclay would have talked about it later during their romantic scenes in episode 4 - enterining a new relationship with someone who can change gender could certainly lead to interesting discussions - but there was nothing. And the whole thing where Homo Aqua dumped all the waste back on Earth at the end of episode 2? That SURELY would have killed thousands of people (or more!) if it was happening in every city on Earth. But it just happens then isn't mentioned again at all. We see a memorail to the people who died in the terrorist attack but nothing for the many more people who would have been squashed by anchors.

I'm not sure what the show wants us to come away thinking of Homo Aqua? At first it seems like they want mankind to change their ways and stop polluting the water and contributing to global warming, so that's good! Their methods might be harsh, but they their goal is positive. But then it turns out they're actually melting the ice caps themselves to flood the Earth and drown us all? So, umm, maybe it was kind of justified to kill them first? Salt says something to Barclay about how she didn't know that part of the plan ("tides within tides") implying that there's some shadowy conspiracy going on with the fish people too, but we never actually get any scenes of fish people interacting with each other without humans around, or any real looks at their fishy society.

But the worst part of the show was the political stuff, becaue it was impossible not to compare it to Children of Earth and this was very very very inferior. Remember how great Peter Capaldi was there and compare that to all the dull characters we got here instead.

Jemma Redgrave did do some good acting but yeah I can't see how Kate stays on as head of UNIT now. Gugu Mbatha-Raw impressed me the most and her scenes facing off with Barclay were the best part of the show. Russell Tovey had good moments with her but would sometimes fall back into doing his comedy "who, me!?" type face.

So yeah it wasn't that good, really!
 
but we never actually get any scenes of fish people interacting with each other without humans around, or any real looks at their fishy society.

Yep. Do they live all around the world? Do they have their own versions of nations or clans or any other divisions? What was their population? Were they all of the same opinion as to how to deal with the land? Were they all awakened recently, or were they all always awake, or is there a mix of both, and could that have complicated how they responded to issues like pollution? It's not so much that there are so many unanswered questions, it's more that it didn't even seem to occur to Davies and McTighe that there were any questions.
 
That's my biggest issue of all: The wasted potential. This could've been a fascinating exploration of Aquakind and the various species and societies within its kingdom. It hinted at all of this and had a few surprising reveals (such as Salt changing gender with ease)...and then did nothing with those hints and reveals.

Instead we got a boring melodrama that beat the viewers over the head with certain issues, which weren't even resolved well.

I'm usually the person who stresses judging a story for what it is instead of what it could've been. However, when a series squanders such potential with so little redeeming qualities (and those qualities exist entirety within the performances and not the story itself), then it's hard not to judge such a series for what it could've been.
 
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I can't help but think about Flux, which was a bit of a mess, but that was in no small part because of Covid. We know it wasn't what it was originally meant to be. I can forgive its failings because of the circumstances beyond Chibnall's control. But The War Between the Land and the Sea seems to have turned out the way Davies and McTighe intended, so it's harder to cut it any slack.
 
This show had some good stuff, mainly in the opener and the finale. But "inconsistent" is definitely the word to describe it. It was like RTD and McTighe didn't actually talk to each other when writing it. Stuff would be introduced then dropped the next episode (or in the same episode.) There was one scene where Salt briefly turned male then turned back again. Obviously I knw that some amphibians can change their sex (I've seen Jurassic Park!) but what was the point of it happening when it's never mentioned again? I thought maybe her and Barclay would have talked about it later during their romantic scenes in episode 4 - enterining a new relationship with someone who can change gender could certainly lead to interesting discussions - but there was nothing. And the whole thing where Homo Aqua dumped all the waste back on Earth at the end of episode 2? That SURELY would have killed thousands of people (or more!) if it was happening in every city on Earth. But it just happens then isn't mentioned again at all. We see a memorail to the people who died in the terrorist attack but nothing for the many more people who would have been squashed by anchors.

I'm not sure what the show wants us to come away thinking of Homo Aqua? At first it seems like they want mankind to change their ways and stop polluting the water and contributing to global warming, so that's good! Their methods might be harsh, but they their goal is positive. But then it turns out they're actually melting the ice caps themselves to flood the Earth and drown us all? So, umm, maybe it was kind of justified to kill them first? Salt says something to Barclay about how she didn't know that part of the plan ("tides within tides") implying that there's some shadowy conspiracy going on with the fish people too, but we never actually get any scenes of fish people interacting with each other without humans around, or any real looks at their fishy society.

But the worst part of the show was the political stuff, becaue it was impossible not to compare it to Children of Earth and this was very very very inferior. Remember how great Peter Capaldi was there and compare that to all the dull characters we got here instead.

Jemma Redgrave did do some good acting but yeah I can't see how Kate stays on as head of UNIT now. Gugu Mbatha-Raw impressed me the most and her scenes facing off with Barclay were the best part of the show. Russell Tovey had good moments with her but would sometimes fall back into doing his comedy "who, me!?" type face.

So yeah it wasn't that good, really!
Even though I think I liked it a little better than you I can't fault most of those comments.

Was it originally planned as a longer story I wonder but they only got funds for 5 episodes so had to strip it down? That happens all the time, I mean it's happened to RTD before (It's a Sin was originally supposed to be 8 episodes but they were only able to do 5).

I think you're right, a story like this needed more sight of the Aquakind side of the fence. If the antagonists had been Russians you'd have had lots of shadowy meetings, Salt clearly being kept out of the loop etc.

In Children of Earth it didn't matter about any alien machinations. We were never supposed to remotely empathise with them. They wanted to use our kids as narcotics. They were the bad guys, no ifs, no buts, we were never supposed to see their point of view.

With the Aquakind it was different, we were supposed to understand them, possibly even root for them (to a degree) but we saw so little of them, we barely even got to see their city before Leo from Silent Witness blew it up.

And yeah what was the point of Salt turning male? I mean there's an interesting throughline there about gender fluidity that I'd have expected Russell to run with but he just forgets about it almost immediately.

The idea of an ancient species that were here first and now want to reclaim the Earth is interesting.

The idea of an everyman hero who's the wrong man and the wrong time but becomes the right man at the right time is interesting.

Two people from opposing factions who fall in love is interesting (and as a story long redates Romeo and Juliet)

Government conspiracies are interesting.

It's just here at times that all these things became a trifle dull.

BUT It wasn't awful by any stretch of the imagination. Compare this to a complete disaster like the MCU's Secret Invasion.

Redgrave and Mbatha-Raw were both excellent. I'm not so sure about Tovey. I like him as an actor (he was fantastic in American Horror Story: NYC) but I think he did overplay the goofy everyman here, whilst also somehow playing the buff romantic lead and it never quite felt real.
 
And yeah what was the point of Salt turning male? I mean there's an interesting throughline there about gender fluidity that I'd have expected Russell to run with but he just forgets about it almost immediately.

I'm not so sure about Tovey. I like him as an actor (he was fantastic in American Horror Story: NYC) but I think he did overplay the goofy everyman here, whilst also somehow playing the buff romantic lead and it never quite felt real.

Considering Tovey is an out gay man in real life and has sometimes played gay characters, and considering RTD created and wrote Queer as Folk, It's a Sin, etc, it would have been interesting to see his character deal with the realization that he's falling for a gender-fluid character... but they barely dealt with the strangeness of falling for a member of a different species entirely, so that would have been one complication too many, I suppose. But it would have been more interesting than the paper-thin bad guys and their conspiracies.

Heck, I forgot until just now that Kirby was presented as nonbinary. I wonder if Davies and McTighe think that making Barclay part of an interracial marriage and the father of a nonbinary kid is supposed to be setup for the relative ease with which Barclay falls for a member of a different species. Or if it was just a way to make family members who don't really add much to the story seem slightly more interesting. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to make the subtext the text. They certainly did that with the ecological themes.
 
If you've read The Writer's Tale, then any use of Tovey by RTD is largely an attempt to ultimately get him just in his underwear (or preferably less), so I wouldn't go hunting for nuance in the character beyond "would fuck a fish".
 
Well, I very much enjoyed this. Watched it over an entire evening on Boxing Day, coupled with a repeat of last year's Who XMas special "Joy to the World" (which, admittedly, compared to this, its a masterpiece in tone and storytelling!).

Long review short: wildly inconsistent, the Severance subplot should've been handled better and basically, the entire thing kinda felt like a retread of The Silurians but without the Doctor? Like, the climax is basically a variation of most Silurian stories (Silurians extinct, ergo no Fish People/Humans co-existence). But still, as I stated, I enjoyed it. I wish it was another Children of Earth, but I'm glad its not another Miracle Day (although they share the same plot mistakes here and there). I hope we get more shows like this.
Well, I liked the final episode more than I expected. Then I looked at Wikipedia. RTD is credited with writing the first and last episodes, Pete McTighe the three middle episodes. I'd really like to know if Davies rewrote McTighe to any significant extent, because the middle episodes are the weakest, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure they were entirely on the same page because one episode seemed to suggest that the aquatic species had been watching humanity for some time, but this one went back to the usual Sea Devils/Silurians routine about them having recently awakened.
Largely agree with this.
 
If you've read The Writer's Tale, then any use of Tovey by RTD is largely an attempt to ultimately get him just in his underwear (or preferably less), so I wouldn't go hunting for nuance in the character beyond "would fuck a fish".

Having never read the Writers Tale nor really looked much into behind the scenes stuff on NuWho — the more I hear, the less I want to know. It sounds horrible.
 
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