Spoilers The War Between the Land and the Sea discussion thread

[Starkers]

Well, I liked the final episode more than I expected. Then I looked at Wikipedia. RTD is credited with writing the first and last episodes, Pete McTighe the three middle episodes. I'd really like to know if Davies rewrote McTighe to any significant extent, because the middle episodes are the weakest, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure they were entirely on the same page because one episode seemed to suggest that the aquatic species had been watching humanity for some time, but this one went back to the usual Sea Devils/Silurians routine about them having recently awakened.

Still a mess overall, mind.

Yeah even though I think it's been ok, and at times very good (just not often enough) it definitely feels somewhat incoherent. You're absolutely right about the "We've been watching you for ages"/"We've just woke up" disconnect.

As I've said I do wonder if this was originally conceived as an original story about an aquatic species finally having enough of mankind's shit and rising up and RTD had a lightbulb moment and thought "Hang about, Sea Devils!"

I also wonder if Disney asked if RTD had any other idea and he dusted this off from a drawer.

 

[Turtletrekker]

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[Timelord79 (he/him)]

They should have sent Hank as ambassador:

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[JD]

So did they ever give an explanation for the Sea Devil's new appearance?

 

[Turtletrekker]

So did they ever give an explanation for the Sea Devil's new appearance?

Did they really need to?

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Thus the miniseries ends.

And thus ends the rubbish dialogue.

And thus ends the boring melodrama.

And thus ends five hours of wasted time.

At the end, I'm left wondering what was even the point? A very heavy-handed environmental message? A third rate Whovian take on The Shape of Water? A pathetic attempt to repeat the dark nature of Children of Earth?

In the end, all there was moderately enjoyable performances from Russell Tovey, Gugu Mbatha-Raw, Jemma Redgrave, and Ruth Madeley.

...and even that was sunken by the gods awful character assassination of Kate Lethbridge-Stewart.

Threatening her therapist with blackmail so she can work? Yes, I get the point that she was overworked and overmedicated, but holy fuck. And pointing a gun at a man refusing to pick up a plastic bottle? Are you fucking kidding me?

The worst of it is the way the final episode played out, I feel like both Russell Davies and Pete McTighe think this series is deeply profound and heartbreaking, like Children of Earth, when instead it's an absolute embarrassment like Miracle Day.

 

[thribs]

So how bad is it? The trailers looked very meh.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

So how bad is it? The trailers looked very meh.

If only there were five pages of reviews to read...

 

[Turtletrekker]

Out of curiosity, those in this thread from North America who have apparently watched this, how? Is it actually available on Disney+ now, or are y'all watching it through alternative methods that can't be spoken of?

Through a friend, but I have no idea how he gets it. I ask no questions and get told no lies.

It was okay. I wasn't expecting high art. I gave it a 7.

 

[Neb Lleb]

Thus the miniseries ends.

And thus ends the rubbish dialogue.

And thus ends the boring melodrama.

And thus ends five hours of wasted time.

At the end, I'm left wondering what was even the point? A very heavy-handed environmental message? A third rate Whovian take on The Shape of Water? A pathetic attempt to repeat the dark nature of Children of Earth?

In the end, all there was moderately enjoyable performances from Russell Tovey, Gugu Mbatha-Raw, Jemma Redgrave, and Ruth Madeley.

...and even that was sunken by the gods awful character assassination of Kate Lethbridge-Stewart.

Threatening her therapist with blackmail so she can work? Yes, I get the point that she was overworked and overmedicated, but holy fuck. And pointing a gun at a man refusing to pick up a plastic bottle? Are you fucking kidding me?

The worst of it is the way the final episode played out, I feel like both Russell Davies and Pete McTighe think this series is deeply profound and heartbreaking, like Children of Earth, when instead it's an absolute embarrassment like Miracle Day.

And so, once again, the RTD2 era of Doctor Who shows us that Davies needs to go period. He's in the midst of what can best be described as the mother of all mid-life crises, but because the Beeb don't have any better options, they have no other choice but to keep him aboard.

Even an American showrunner, such as She-Ra and Babylon 5's J. Michael Strazcynski, could have a much better finger on the pulse of the Doctor Whoniverse than Davies does at the moment.

 

[The Wormhole]

JMS is not the answer.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

JMS is not the answer.

As a big JMS fan, I agree.

 

[Steve Roby]

I third that emotion. I don't think the strengths he demonstrated in B5 are necessarily what Doctor Who needs, and I really don't think a 71-year-old American who retired from writing comics in 2016 because of eye problems and who hasn't run a TV series since 2018 is the fresh new face Doctor Who arguably needs.

 

[Neb Lleb]

Well, someone who is actually talented and understands the core of Doctor Who is something we need at the very least.

 

[Starkers]

And so, once again, the RTD2 era of Doctor Who shows us that Davies needs to go period. He's in the midst of what can best be described as the mother of all mid-life crises, but because the Beeb don't have any better options, they have no other choice but to keep him aboard.

Even an American showrunner, such as She-Ra and Babylon 5's J. Michael Strazcynski, could have a much better finger on the pulse of the Doctor Whoniverse than Davies does at the moment.

Have you actually watched the show yet?

As many, myself included, have said TWBTLATS isn't the worst thing ever made, yes it's bang average but I've seen far worse.

As for the RTD2 era, setting aside the season finales I enjoyed the majority of episodes, again as did many people.

 

[Starkers]

...and even that was sunken by the gods awful character assassination of Kate Lethbridge-Stewart.

Threatening her therapist with blackmail so she can work? Yes, I get the point that she was overworked and overmedicated, but holy fuck. And pointing a gun at a man refusing to pick up a plastic bottle? Are you fucking kidding me?

See I actually really liked those moment. I bet Jemma Redgrave did as well.

 

[Steve Roby]

RTD is actually talented, as many of his other shows prove, and he brought back Doctor Who in 2005 and made it a success, when many people expected it to fail.

If Big Finish is really ending its Torchwood line, and not just the monthly main range, James Goss may have some free time. But he doesn't have TV experience. He made that Torchwood line BF's most consistently good, original, and surprising series, though, so maybe he can work with a producer who does a bit less of the writing than Davies, Moffat, or Chibnall did.

 

[Neb Lleb]

RTD is actually talented, as many of his other shows prove, and he brought back Doctor Who in 2005 and made it a success, when many people expected it to fail.

If Big Finish is really ending its Torchwood line, and not just the monthly main range, James Goss may have some free time. But he doesn't have TV experience. He made that Torchwood line BF's most consistently good, original, and surprising series, though, so maybe he can work with a producer who does a bit less of the writing than Davies, Moffat, or Chibnall did.

Yeah, this will be the discussion most of us will have: Who is capable of making Doctor Who a juggernaut again?

 

[The Nth Doctor]

See I actually really liked those moment. I bet Jemma Redgrave did as well.

I can see why but those moments really rubbed me the wrong way.

RTD is actually talented, as many of his other shows prove, and he brought back Doctor Who in 2005 and made it a success, when many people expected it to fail.

Because I loved Years and Years and based on what I've heard about It's a Sin, I was actually looking forward to seeing if he would approach Who differently.

Which is precisely why I'm so disappointed he resorted back to his worst impulses of the first time around. Don't get me wrong, he did some good episodes and made some good overall decisions, but they were outshined by those bad impulses.

If Big Finish is really ending its Torchwood line, and not just the monthly main range, James Goss may have some free time. But he doesn't have TV experience. He made that Torchwood line BF's most consistently good, original, and surprising series, though, so maybe he can work with a producer who does a bit less of the writing than Davies, Moffat, or Chibnall did.

I would love to have someone like James Goss or John Dorney or some of the other seasoned Big Finish writers work on the mothership show. Their lack of TV experience might be an issue but perhaps the show could go back to the showrunner and script editor format of the classic series and they could fulfill the latter aspect? I know that's too much to hope for...

 

[Starkers]

@The Grinch Doctor I do think the next showrunner shouldn't be a fan (or shouldn't be such an old school fan). Look at what Gilroy did with Andor, hell, look what Meyer accomplished with Trek back in the day.

I enjoyed RTD2 for the most part but I do think you're right, the show needs a shake up, we just have to be cautious that it isn't given too big a shake.

I can't see the reins being handed to someone who has zero TV experience though.