Spoilers "Elaan of Troyius" (TOS) and "The Perfect Mate" (TNG) [Picard spoilers]

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Lord Garth, Nov 7, 2019.

  1. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    A friend of mine, @BlackUniGryphon who's just registered, and I were speculating about Star Trek: Picard and (spoilers for the upcoming series)...

    who the identity of Dahj might be. I have no real idea other than I'm leaning heavily toward she's part-Borg, but BlackUniGryphon says Dahj might be Picard's daughter. I asked from where, and she mentioned "The Perfect Mate". An episode I hadn't seen since I was a kid...

    ... so we decided to rewatch "The Perfect Mate". All I could think of was two things: first -- as has been mentioned before -- how much it reminded me of TOS's "Elaan of Troyus" and second, that Picard and Kamala were... involved. Something that I, as a 12-year-old when this aired, never would've picked up on at the time because they were very careful to keep everything implicit instead of explicit.

    What it highlights is the difference between Kirk and Picard. Picard is obsessed with appearing proper down to a fault. Whereas Kirk would never shy away from romancing someone he was interested in.

    But Elaan, the Dohlman of Elas couldn't be any different from Kamala. Kamala seemed born for marriage. Whereas Elaan seemed to find the very concept repugnant. Especially if it's pre-arranged.

    Kamala has pheromones that make any male attracted to her. First Riker, who leaves immediately, and then Picard who tries to resist with all his strength. Elaan makes men attracted to her by crying and by having men touch her tears. Kirk tried to comfort Elaan, which is why he touched the tears. Picard would've consoled her but wouldn't have touched her in his proper state of mind. Which might've been why pheromones were used in "The Perfect Mate" since Picard wouldn't have to touch Kamala to be effected by them.

    There are some more similarities between the other two episodes as well. In both episodes, the Ambassador is attacked. In "Elaan of Troyius", it's by the Dohlman herself. In "The Perfect Mate" is by Ferengi, who are immediately escorted off the ship.

    In this episode of series Streaming to the Stars, that we host and produce, we talk about the similarities been the two episodes at greater length and compare and contrast how TOS and TNG approach the same type of episode. Be warned that there are spoilers for the first trailer for Star Trek: Picard during the discussion. I also give a shout out to TrekBBS at the end.



    What do you think about the similarities and differences between "The Perfect Mate" and "Elaan of Troyius"?

    Or, incidentally, anything that we speculated about in regards to Star Trek: Picard?
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  2. BlackUniGryphon

    BlackUniGryphon Cadet Newbie

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    I guess everyone is sleeping this late at night...
     
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  3. ScottJ85

    ScottJ85 Commander Red Shirt

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    Threads here sometimes move pretty slowly. It's a tradeoff, you don't get fast-moving conversations like you do on other forms of social media but then again this forum is extremely chill compared to most Facebook groups.
     
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  4. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I should've marked this thread for spoilers when I created it. What do you think of the theory about who Dahj might be? Do you think it's nuts, dead-on, or somewhere in-between?
     
  5. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    Is that a request?
     
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  6. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes, please. It would be appreciated. Thanks!
     
  7. 1001001

    1001001 I Like the Nightlife, Baby! Moderator

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    If the discussion is speculation about the Picard Show, wouldn't this go in FoT?
     
  8. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'd say 95% of what we talked about was "The Perfect Mate" and "Elaan of Troyus", but maybe the 5% is the hottest item. So that maybe FOT would be better for that?

    I'm interested in the TOS vs. TNG discussion, but if the other angle generates more discussion, then FOT would be better. But it's also a multi-series discussion. TOS, TNG, and PIC. That seems GTD by definition.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  9. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Picard was certainly and knowingly involved in "Human" trafficing. My take is that Kamala had no free will as to what was happening to her.

    If Picard had a affair with her, how much free will would have been present there?
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  10. 1001001

    1001001 I Like the Nightlife, Baby! Moderator

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    Since @The Old Mixer moderates FoT, I'll leave it to him to decide. I'm fine with however it works best for everyone.
     
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  11. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think in the 24th Century, the Federation is too accommodating of other worlds for its own good. Sure the Federation doesn't want to create a diplomatic incident, but should that come at the cost of compromising the Federation's values? Which I assume don't include human trafficking.

    I think Kirk wouldn't have moved forward with delivering Kamala once he knew what was going on. It would've risked an incident, but I think Kirk would found a way keep the peace without going along with something he knows is wrong.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  12. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    I'd be happy to put it in FoT, but it seems like the bulk of the OP was about comparing the episodes with a side of Picard angle. I'm inclined to leave it here.

    If the spoiler tag is meant to be for the Picard angle, though, perhaps that should be added to the title in parentheses so people know what the spoiler pertains to?
     
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  13. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    ENTERPRISE's "Precious Cargo" is yet another variation on this plot.

    It's funny that "Elaan of Troyius" evokes Helen of Troy when it actually owes more to Shakespeare's "The Taming of the Shrew." Indeed the situation with Helen is kinda the opposite of the situation on TOS: Helen running off with Paris starts the Trojan War, whereas Elaan's marriage is intended to end a war.

    Unless TOS is casting Kirk as a potential Paris in this scenario?
     
  14. Shawnster

    Shawnster Commodore Commodore

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    Running off? I was always under the impression it wasn't Helen's choice. Too much anti-Troyan propaganda for me I suppose.
     
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  15. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    Think that depends on the version. I've seen it portrayed as a love match, possibly inducted by Aphrodite.

    Granted, the line between seduction and abduction can be a bit blurry in old myths.
     
  16. Shawnster

    Shawnster Commodore Commodore

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    Like I said... propaganda :lol
     
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  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    I mean, that could be.
     
  18. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    Wouldn't Spock be better suited for the role?
    MI02.jpg
     
  19. Cutie McWhiskers

    Cutie McWhiskers Commodore Commodore

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    "Elaan of Troyius" is surprisingly open-ended. Is a Dohlman like a queen or higher ranking title and can marry whomever they want? Is the issue based on her not wanting to marry anyone or just any Troyian, of which the disdain she puts forward is fairly overt. And for either case, what would have led her to have her current beliefs?

    Kirk's story wasn't as refined and it's a bit fantastical that tears from one species would have the same effect on others in the identical way. As a sci-fi concept for a species, tears as an aphrodisiac ranks up there with the real life condition where certain species that mate and just afterward one eats the other and there's no bottle of Chianti involved... so, if a praying mantis could cry in order to get the hots for it, do NOT touch unless you're even more ravenous. Sounds silly? Yup. That's why sci-fi has historically been anything other than a niche genre fascination as opposed for general audiences, they write out the weird stuff.

    The Ferengi appearance is about as plot-killing here as they were in "Rascals".

    She might be part Borg or former Borg with bits removed. But that alone can't make her special other than the ways Hugh and Seven were, and their presence clearly does include a theme. Or she's the daughter of Seven and Picard. But Picard's daughter and he's running around saying how great she is? Most parents are claimed to do that for their own children, it's a long standing human custom. That's boring. I honestly don't know. whatever the reason for her being so important, I just hope it's a good one nobody's expecting or less likely to accurately guess.
     
  20. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's pretty bold how transparently contrived the Ferengi plot device was. I really hate to use the phrase "lazy writing," but perhaps this qualifies?

    I really don't see a scene where it's implied that Picard slept with Kamala other than her telling him that she has permanently bonded to him, and maybe the closing scene where the ambassador says 'how did you resist?' and Picard says nothing. That could either mean "I didn't (resist)" or it could mean "I barely was able to resist. I'm miserable about this and don't want to talk about it," which is how I've always interpreted the scene before.