Each time I see Revenge of the Sith...

[RAMA]

You know, that's a really good point about all these continuing stories. Star Trek was very much the combined efforts of many people, as were the first two (and only good) Star Wars films. This "vision" business is a code word for "successful formula we desperately want to replicate to make a bunch of of money but we'll talk abuot it like a religious dogma to appease the diehard fans". It always ends up being restrictive and ultimately kills the vitality and creativity of a fictional universe.

It was actually a similar conversation about Lucas that prompted me to dig up the dvds and rewatch them.

I'm not sure if it is a recent development but certainly I've noticed alot more of the Lucas-is-a-genius stuff in recent years than ever before. (Although I have noticed this word bandied about more frequently in general with other people too)

Still, especially after watching some of the special features it sort of seems to me comparable to giving Pope Julius II the credit for painting the sistine chapel.

Whatever creative limitations Lucas has, it really can't be denied he is one of the rare few who pushes forward the technical side of cinema with a very tangible result (computer controlled cameras, THX sound in theaters and at home, ILM, digital cameras/film, etc). For that reason he is probably more important than Spielberg, despite his much shorter list of director/writer/producer credits.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I've only seen ROTS twice (and I'm pretty sure that's going to be my lifetime total, too). The second time it was better because I knew it was basically just a lot of pretty nonsense till the end. Vader's creation was a great moment, even if that was ruined as well (we all know how).

Case-in-point: Padme's death. She needed to die so she'd be out of the picture for ANH, but there wasn't anything in the story up to that point that really motivated it. So she just...dies, for no reason. Because she has to. Oh, and the spits out the names "Luke" and "Leia," apropos of nothing, because the twins need names, after all.

Padme's death should have been suicide. There's just no other way to pull it off plausibly. She squirts out the twins and then, realizing Anakin will psychically find her and the kiddies no matter what if she remains alive, drags herself to the nearest convenient airlock and exist sans spacesuit. We could have had a lovely tragic image of Frozen Padme floating in space (don't worry, NASA says people don't really blow up in space, so she can still have a pretty funeral) and it's plausible that things could be arranged so that Anakin thinks she killed herself before the babies were born. Pad the corpse for the funeral, maybe. Bonus points if the twins were born prematurely.

But with all the medical tech we have to assume the Star Wars society has available, death in childbirth is just wildly implausible, even if it had been a whole lot more convincing (violent and bloody) than what we saw. A realistic death in childbirth is probably not something your average Star Wars fan wants to see.

Anakin should not have been motivated by loving wifey too much. That's too whiny and pathetic of a motive to synch up with someone who becomes the Incarnation of Evil. There's only one good motive that can lead someone to Vader-hood, and that's Lust for Power. A clever script could have convinced us that Anakin had deluded himself he was after something else - protecting his loved ones - but still made crystal clear that he was a hypocrite and it was power he loved above all.

As for the kiddies' names, it would have been more ironic and tragic if Padme hadn't named them after all. Why couldn't Obi-Wan and Bail Organa decide on the names themselves? That would make sense but also be interestingly unexpected.

 

[Kegek]

Anakin should not have been motivated by loving wifey too much. That's too whiny and pathetic of a motive to synch up with someone who becomes the Incarnation of Evil. There's only one good motive that can lead someone to Vader-hood, and that's Lust for Power. A clever script could have convinced us that Anakin had deluded himself he was after something else - protecting his loved ones - but still made crystal clear that he was a hypocrite and it was power he loved above all.

It'd be harder to buy his redemption in ROTJ then. I think the idea in ROTS was sound, even if lacking in execution. Anakin becomes Vader with good intentions; and slaughters Tusken innocents out of love for his mother. He reacts badly but with good intentions; becomes corrupted by that and goes under. If he knew and plotted all along simply for the acquiring of power; well, he'd be no different than the Emperor (which would make that character redundant and his seduction of Anakin; one of the more interesting things in ROTS, a waste of time).

Essentially, Vader ceases to be Vader for the same reason he became Vader: Love of family. Mom dies; he kills the Tuskens in revenge. He tries to save his wife and becomes the Dark Lord. When the Emperor threatens to kill his son he shafts him. His actions may be inconsistent; but his motive is frequently the same.

 

[Gepard]

Having her die was not only inconsistent with the OT, it was incredibly implausible given what we know of SW technology. Not to mention that people simply don't drop dead from a "broken heart" in all of three seconds!

And that, in a nutshell, is the problem with that scene. *gives Lucas a sound thrashing*

 

[Mr. Fergy]

If that is the case maybe you should stop watching it...

Agreed.

BTW: It wasn't that bad, very little Jar-Jar.

 

[Gotham Central]

The Prequel Trilogy was generally pretty lame. Personally I thought that Attack of the Clones, despite having an awful name had the most sophisticated story. That's why I consider it the best film. Most of the movies get a whole lot better when you simply ignore Anakin.

The problem with ROTS was that it was noticeably rushed and there was no good reason for that. Watching the Clone Wars animated series made me realise what a waste The Phantom Menace was. There was nothing in the movie that was particularly necessary for us to know. Anakin's turn to darkness seems far more practical and nuanced in the animated shorts than in the movie.

 

[zenophite]

Padme's death should have been suicide. There's just no other way to pull it off plausibly. She squirts out the twins and then, realizing Anakin will psychically find her and the kiddies no matter what if she remains alive, drags herself to the nearest convenient airlock and exist sans spacesuit. We could have had a lovely tragic image of Frozen Padme floating in space (don't worry, NASA says people don't really blow up in space, so she can still have a pretty funeral) and it's plausible that things could be arranged so that Anakin thinks she killed herself before the babies were born. Pad the corpse for the funeral, maybe. Bonus points if the twins were born prematurely.

That's actually a very good idea and would bring the series more in line with a greek tragedy of sorts which i think would have helped it.

Anakin should not have been motivated by loving wifey too much. That's too whiny and pathetic of a motive to synch up with someone who becomes the Incarnation of Evil. There's only one good motive that can lead someone to Vader-hood, and that's Lust for Power. A clever script could have convinced us that Anakin had deluded himself he was after something else - protecting his loved ones - but still made crystal clear that he was a hypocrite and it was power he loved above all.

Indeed. I think he could have pulled off a far more nuanced conversion to the dark side. It doesn't necessarily have to be a straight lust for power but just show a progression of an ever increasing tendency to use an "ends-justifying -the-means" personal philosophy on the part of Anakin.

As for the kiddies' names, it would have been more ironic and tragic if Padme hadn't named them after all. Why couldn't Obi-Wan and Bail Organa decide on the names themselves? That would make sense but also be interestingly unexpected.

Also a good idea. A nice way to offer at least a mild surprise for the audience.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

Still, especially after watching some of the special features it sort of seems to me comparable to giving Pope Julius II the credit for painting the sistine chapel.

What, IMO, separtates a hack from a genius is the genius story teller doesn't have just one, extremely lucrative world that must be milked over and over again.

For example, Shakespeare didn't get rich off of A Merchant of Venice and spend the rest of his career milking that story. He didn't do Venice: The Prequel, or Venice: The Story Continueth for the next 20 or so odd years.

Roddenberry and Lucas may be creative and very smart, but genius denotes an entirely different level of creativity that neither have demonstrated.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

We could have had a lovely tragic image of Frozen Padme floating in space (don't worry, NASA says people don't really blow up in space, so she can still have a pretty funeral) .

They don't really freeze in space either. It's cold, sure, but there isn't any sort of medium to transfer heat to, like an atmosphere. So it takes a long, long time for the heat from a person to radiate out from the body.

Her death was really unnecessary to the story. If Lucas just had to have his dramatic irony, he should have figured out a way to pull it off without making it suck so much. Perhaps having Anakin's mother hold on long enough to die at the end of the third film.

 

[zenophite]

Still, especially after watching some of the special features it sort of seems to me comparable to giving Pope Julius II the credit for painting the sistine chapel.

What, IMO, separtates a hack from a genius is the genius story teller doesn't have just one, extremely lucrative world that must be milked over and over again.

For example, Shakespeare didn't get rich off of A Merchant of Venice and spend the rest of his career milking that story. He didn't do Venice: The Prequel, or Venice: The Story Continueth for the next 20 or so odd years.

Roddenberry and Lucas may be creative and very smart, but genius denotes an entirely different level of creativity that neither have demonstrated.

I think its just indicative of how overuse of a word can really cheapen its meaning. So many entertainment people are called geniuses that it has really no meaning at all. Sort of like how just about any female singer is called a diva.

 

[RAMA]

I've only seen ROTS twice (and I'm pretty sure that's going to be my lifetime total, too). The second time it was better because I knew it was basically just a lot of pretty nonsense till the end. Vader's creation was a great moment, even if that was ruined as well (we all know how).

Case-in-point: Padme's death. She needed to die so she'd be out of the picture for ANH, but there wasn't anything in the story up to that point that really motivated it. So she just...dies, for no reason. Because she has to. Oh, and the spits out the names "Luke" and "Leia," apropos of nothing, because the twins need names, after all.

Padme's death should have been suicide. There's just no other way to pull it off plausibly. She squirts out the twins and then, realizing Anakin will psychically find her and the kiddies no matter what if she remains alive, drags herself to the nearest convenient airlock and exist sans spacesuit. We could have had a lovely tragic image of Frozen Padme floating in space (don't worry, NASA says people don't really blow up in space, so she can still have a pretty funeral) and it's plausible that things could be arranged so that Anakin thinks she killed herself before the babies were born. Pad the corpse for the funeral, maybe. Bonus points if the twins were born prematurely.

Padme's death was never really an issue for me. A patient's mental state is often a major contributor to their well being and recovery, and its not that implausible that she simply didn't have the will to live.

RAMA

 

[ancient]

Why wouldn't she have the will to live?

 

[zenophite]

because she found out how bad the trilogy actually turned out

seriously though, Lucas was trying to go with the losing her one true love thing. I guess padme's maternal instincts hadn't kicked in yet.

 

[ancient]

I don't think her brain had kicked in. Maybe she suffered a blunt force trauma to the head during the Clone Wars, because she acts like a total nit-wit in Ep. 3.

 

[Skywalker]

Maybe she suffered brain damage after being Force choked by Anakin, cutting off the oxygen to her brain.

 

[RAMA]

Why wouldn't she have the will to live?

Did you watch the movie??

She went from thinking she had a peaceful future with Anakin to finding out the whole Republic--something which she served for and believed in--was taken over in a coup! That her love which they both had fought for against the odds of distance, tradition, and protocols had led Anakin to killing in her name. Not just on a personal scale of people they new but also on a mass scale. Then in the end he fights against his closest former friend and supposedly DIES. All in the span of a day or two. For some people that would mean a really bad day..

RAMA

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well, certain flaws in the dialog probably stick out more.

But to me, that movie will always be great. Seeing that final battle between Anakin and Obi-Wan in theatres with surround sound was one of the most epic experiences of my life.

That weren't no final battle. I'm not sure what that was, but Vader kills Obiwan 25 years earlier in A New Hope... What was the movie where these two guys get into a fight and one of them just keeps screaming at the top of his lungs "YOU FUCKED MY WIFE! YOU FUCKED MY WIFE! YOU FUCKED MY WIFE!" ...What was that movie, because it certainly wasn't Revenge of the Sith.

Although, have you watched it with the Lucas commentaries? Lucus us telling us to stop and concentrate on all the bits he thinnks is clever that we might have missed which are important tot he over all plot, and there's two ass kissers congratulating him for being the best human being on the planet. It's so sad.

 

[zenophite]

Although, have you watched it with the Lucas commentaries? Lucus us telling us to stop and concentrate on all the bits he thinnks is clever that we might have missed which are important tot he over all plot, and there's two ass kissers congratulating him for being the best human being on the planet. It's so sad.

I haven't heard it but most likely it is rick Mccallum and the other bearded guy that is always around in the special features. IThere's no practical interest in biting the hand that feeds them. Though I do get the sense that some of the people around Lucas probably roll their eyes at his story/production ideas when he's not in the room. I think it was the expression on the face of the production people during AOTC when Lucas said he wanted Yoda to spin like the tasmanian devil or something like that.

Anyway I all for giving props to Lucas for pushing the digital cinema stuff just not for storytelling capablity

 

[DWF]

Anakin should not have been motivated by loving wifey too much. That's too whiny and pathetic of a motive to synch up with someone who becomes the Incarnation of Evil. There's only one good motive that can lead someone to Vader-hood, and that's Lust for Power. A clever script could have convinced us that Anakin had deluded himself he was after something else - protecting his loved ones - but still made crystal clear that he was a hypocrite and it was power he loved above all.

It'd be harder to buy his redemption in ROTJ then. I think the idea in ROTS was sound, even if lacking in execution. Anakin becomes Vader with good intentions; and slaughters Tusken innocents out of love for his mother. He reacts badly but with good intentions; becomes corrupted by that and goes under. If he knew and plotted all along simply for the acquiring of power; well, he'd be no different than the Emperor (which would make that character redundant and his seduction of Anakin; one of the more interesting things in ROTS, a waste of time).

Essentially, Vader ceases to be Vader for the same reason he became Vader: Love of family. Mom dies; he kills the Tuskens in revenge. He tries to save his wife and becomes the Dark Lord. When the Emperor threatens to kill his son he shafts him. His actions may be inconsistent; but his motive is frequently the same.

Which was Lucas' point that people could do evil things while convincing themselves they're doing the right thing.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.05/lucasqa.html

But the second trilogy certainly had a built-in audience.
Yeah, everyone says the second trilogy was a slam dunk. But there was a lot of controversy around here about the fact that I wasn't doing the obvious -- I wasn't doing the commercial version of what people expected. People expected Episode III, which is where Anakin turns into Darth Vader, to be Episode I. And then they expected Episodes II and III to be Darth Vader going around cutting people's heads off and terrorizing the universe. But how did he get to be Darth Vader? You have to explore him in relationships, and you have to see where he started. He was a sweet kid, helpful, just like most people imagine themselves to be. Most people said, "This guy must have been a horrible little brat -- a demon child." But the point is, he wasn't born that way -- he became that way and thought he was doing the right thing. He eventually realizes he's going down the dark path, but he thinks it's justifiable. The idea is to see how a democracy becomes a dictatorship, and how a good person goes bad -- and still, in the end, thinks he's doing the right thing.

 

[DWF]

Although, have you watched it with the Lucas commentaries? Lucus us telling us to stop and concentrate on all the bits he thinnks is clever that we might have missed which are important tot he over all plot, and there's two ass kissers congratulating him for being the best human being on the planet. It's so sad.

The commentaries weren't recorded together and that's fairly obvious be hearing them.