DS9 Versus: A viewing experient
- Thread starter Sykonee
- Start date
Maybe it's a faulty impression, but one thing that struck me when I last watched Season 5 of DS9 is that it seemed to be the point where they started to do lots of sequels or semi-sequels to previous episodes (Looking for Par'Mach..., Things Past, For the Uniform, Ties of Blood and Water, arguably The Begotten). It didn't hurt the show at all, indeed, this is probably the best season.
I think this happens with a lot of series. They start looking back on the show's internal history and look to see if they can expand upon their own mythology in the process. Maybe even tie up loose ends. It definitely helps create a much richer tapestry.
Regarding an earlier discussion:
In the first 25, there are 6 to 8 Event episodes - again, depending on your definition of an Event episode.
These are the complete current results, for those who aren't members so can't open the statistics or the vote page:
1. In the Pale Moonlight 55.00
2. Duet 51.25
3. The Jem ´Hadar / The Search (parts 1 & 2) 46.25
4. Call to Arms 33.75
5. Treachery, Faith and the Great River 30.00
6. Necessary Evil 25.00
7. The Visitor 22.50
8. Second Skin 20.00
9. Little Green Men 20.00
10. In Purgatory´s Shadow / By Inferno´s Light 20.00
11. Explorers 18.75
12. Improbable Cause / The Die Is Cast 17.50
13. ...Nor the Battle to the Strong 16.25
14. Tacking into the Wind 16.25
15. Ties of Blood and Water 13.75
16. The Siege of AR-558 13.75
17. Chimera 13.75
18. Far Beyond the Stars 12.50
19. You Are Cordially Invited... 11.25
20. Past Tense (parts 1 & 2) 10.00
21. Favor the Bold / Sacrifice of Angels 8.75
22. Hard Time 7.50
23. Rocks and Shoals 7.50
24. Our Man Bashir 6.25
25. The Ship 6.25
26. Children of Time 6.25
27. Statistical Probabilities 5.00
28. Emissary 3.75
29. Crossover 3.75
30. The House of Quark 3.75
31. Hippocratic Oath 3.75
32. Behind the Lines 3.75
33. The Quickening 2.50
34. Trials & Tribble-ations 2.50
35. The Ascent 2.50
36. Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges 2.50
37. What You Leave Behind 2.50
38. Captive Pursuit 1.25
39. The Maquis (parts 1 & 2) 1.25
40. Inquisition 1.25
Note the current results of my Best episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine ranking on Rankopedia. There are only 4 Event episodes in the Top 10 - and that's only if you consider In the Pale Moonlight an Event episode, otherwise it's just 3.Well, the previous two seasons DS9 pretty much owned the spring schedule, and even gave TNG a run for its money during the first May Sweeps. It's good that there's some strong competition going around now. It'll make DS9 work that much harder to regain its dominance next year.Um, back to the topic... B5 seems to be winning all the time now? Though I guess that will change as DS9 approaches the Dominion war, since you obviously prefer the Event episodes.. For the time being, I'll just have to take your word that those B5 eps are that good.
But Event Episodes are almost always going to trump others. After all, when you look at most Top 10 Episodes Lists, they usually consist of a good 80% Event Episodes. They're just more engrossing to an audience. They're the moments in TV that we look forward to the most, as it sends the characters we've gotten to know into dilemmas that are far higher in stake.
In the first 25, there are 6 to 8 Event episodes - again, depending on your definition of an Event episode.
These are the complete current results, for those who aren't members so can't open the statistics or the vote page:
1. In the Pale Moonlight 55.00
2. Duet 51.25
3. The Jem ´Hadar / The Search (parts 1 & 2) 46.25
4. Call to Arms 33.75
5. Treachery, Faith and the Great River 30.00
6. Necessary Evil 25.00
7. The Visitor 22.50
8. Second Skin 20.00
9. Little Green Men 20.00
10. In Purgatory´s Shadow / By Inferno´s Light 20.00
11. Explorers 18.75
12. Improbable Cause / The Die Is Cast 17.50
13. ...Nor the Battle to the Strong 16.25
14. Tacking into the Wind 16.25
15. Ties of Blood and Water 13.75
16. The Siege of AR-558 13.75
17. Chimera 13.75
18. Far Beyond the Stars 12.50
19. You Are Cordially Invited... 11.25
20. Past Tense (parts 1 & 2) 10.00
21. Favor the Bold / Sacrifice of Angels 8.75
22. Hard Time 7.50
23. Rocks and Shoals 7.50
24. Our Man Bashir 6.25
25. The Ship 6.25
26. Children of Time 6.25
27. Statistical Probabilities 5.00
28. Emissary 3.75
29. Crossover 3.75
30. The House of Quark 3.75
31. Hippocratic Oath 3.75
32. Behind the Lines 3.75
33. The Quickening 2.50
34. Trials & Tribble-ations 2.50
35. The Ascent 2.50
36. Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges 2.50
37. What You Leave Behind 2.50
38. Captive Pursuit 1.25
39. The Maquis (parts 1 & 2) 1.25
40. Inquisition 1.25
Oh teh nose! I missed some! 
I would give the win to B5 this week though. Sheridan's triumphant return overshadowing Garabaldi's lower-key one is something that doesn't rub with Michael. It's a plot point that starts to gradually push the next storyline into motion, whilst at the same time furthering the ever-escalating Shadow-Vorlon conflict. The show is just in full swing at the moment, and has been for a while now. A few more episodes, and I believe things will change.
DevilEyes - that Top 40 makes interesting reading, but for me personally only holds some relevance. I cartainly wouldn't have Second Skin, Little Green Men, The Jem'Hadar/The Search in my Top 10, and there are event episodes lower down that I would have higher up.
Strong week from all shows here. Future's End (or at least part one) is time travel hijinks done right, with tongue in cheek references to the 90s and a sense of humour with the whole thing. The Hour Of The Wolf is the total opposite - a dark, grim hour. I enjoyed it a lot, but really we're on a slow build for a few episodes now until, erm, certain things. Trials and Tribble-ations is the best of the three, by combining DS9 cast with 60s TOS cast seemlessly in a fantastic homage/sequel to Troubles With Tribbles.
DS9 scores a stinker, in what is a very strange episode. And not in a good way. Worf acts like a spoilt stick in the mud, ruining everybody's fun, and does his character no favours. Hang on, I'm making it sound like Worf's fault. VOY's conclusion to last week's decent setup is very hit and miss, which is something of a familiar pattern to TNG and VOY. B5 sneaks ahead with another quiet episode, or at least seemingly quiet. It has many very good scenes in it, and continues to ratchet up the tension.
Sorry, but I'll have to disagree with you on Warlord - I think it's terrible! I usually liked it when Jennifer Lien was given something more to do, but this episode is quite bad for her. I find her far too over the top, and too distracting from the main story, which was nothing exciting to begin with anyway. DS9 has a corker with Things Past, as it delves back into its Terok-Nor history with something shocking about Odo's past. I love this episode; it's a good compainion to Necessary Evil. In comparison with it though, it is a lesser episode.
I would give the win to B5 this week though. Sheridan's triumphant return overshadowing Garabaldi's lower-key one is something that doesn't rub with Michael. It's a plot point that starts to gradually push the next storyline into motion, whilst at the same time furthering the ever-escalating Shadow-Vorlon conflict. The show is just in full swing at the moment, and has been for a while now. A few more episodes, and I believe things will change.
DevilEyes - that Top 40 makes interesting reading, but for me personally only holds some relevance. I cartainly wouldn't have Second Skin, Little Green Men, The Jem'Hadar/The Search in my Top 10, and there are event episodes lower down that I would have higher up.
It has the relevance of being the combination of 8 people's top 10 lists. If you want to affect the rankings, register and vote.
We could as well find the old top 10 episodes thread on this forum, or start a new one. As far as I remember, I don't think many people had 80% of Event episodes in their list... probably not even 60%.
(BTW Second Skin is in my top 10)
I voted for it as number one!
So you're trigati. I suspected as much.
I see you've also voted for the Best character in Star Trek franchise and Favorite Next Generation character. Why don't you vote for Best Star Trek series, Best character from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, and Best Star Trek female character (all series)? (I'm pretty annoyed with the results of that one - Crusher and Troi in top 5, Kira no higher than 9?! 
Maybe Best Star Trek alien species, too...Sorry for hijacking the thread. Now back to your regular scheduled programming...
good one. janeway on top, and lolita dax not even mentioned.
That's okay. I've been busy this week, so it's nice for you to keep this thread on Page 1 of the DS9 forum in the interim.Sorry for hijacking the thread. Now back to your regular scheduled programming...
I'll also note that of those Top 10 that I've gone through, they've all won their respective weeks. Okay, so a couple of them were on solo weeks, but still...
Week 12: (Ending 12.01.96)
DS9 - The Ascent (Airdate 11.25.96)
VOY - The Q And The Grey (Airdate 11.27.96)
B5 - Falling Towards Apotheosis (Airdate 11.28.96)
Once again, DS9 takes a basic premise and turns it into a compelling Character Episode. How do they do it, mang!? I mean, there really isn't anything in The Ascent that's innovative or fresh, yet I'm glued to the screen watching Quark and Odo struggle up a mountain, bickering away at each other. It's nuts that it should work as well as it does.
I dunno what VOY was trying to do this week. Ridiculous romcom? After-school special about parenthood? Hokey Civil War game? Okay, seriously! The LEADER of the Status Q is held captive by Tom with a rifle? How is that even possible? Was he protected by some kind of Super-Q Armor to deflect any flash-away? Ugh... thinking... too... much...
B5 finally gets things moving along after all these weeks of set-up. First thing's first: takin' care of some Vorlon business, and damn if that ain't one hell of a scene! Okay, so maybe the 'shoot the suit' bit lasted a little long, but then I suppose it helps sell just how tough of a nut that suit is to crack. When Kosh2 emerges though, hot damn! Anyhow, B5 gets back to doing what it does best: giving us a proper payoff to previous episodes' set-up, all the while moving other arcs further into motion for future episodes (in this case, the assembling of the "largest fleet ever" and Londo's plans). B5 takes this week.
Now, we head into winter re-runs. Or, wait... VOY only has a week off, then is right back? Man, that show sure likes to indulge the solo weeks, huh.
Weekly Winner
B5
Next:
VOY - Macrocosm
Dunno if I've seen the VOY episode.
The Ascent: I liked the pretty outdoor scenery in the episode (now that's something you don't see on B5) and it was nice to have Odo and Quark put into a situation like this, but the charm sort of wore off by the end. Overall I found the episode pretty enjoyable, but kind of average.
Falling Toward Apotheosis is actually my least favourite episode in this particular arc - Cartagia's plans seemed maybe a little too crazy - but it's still a strong instalment and sets things up nicely for the next episode. Plus, we get to see what a Vorlon really really looks like.
Not quite a vintage week, but B5 wins it for me.
The Ascent: I liked the pretty outdoor scenery in the episode (now that's something you don't see on B5) and it was nice to have Odo and Quark put into a situation like this, but the charm sort of wore off by the end. Overall I found the episode pretty enjoyable, but kind of average.
Falling Toward Apotheosis is actually my least favourite episode in this particular arc - Cartagia's plans seemed maybe a little too crazy - but it's still a strong instalment and sets things up nicely for the next episode. Plus, we get to see what a Vorlon really really looks like.
Not quite a vintage week, but B5 wins it for me.
I got to disagree too - I would have given Warlord the win!
Things Past is good, sure, but it's also a retread in part of Necessary Evil (which was better), and I think you're dead on the mark about B5. Warlord is just the most entertaining hour of Tee-Vee out of three, and in the end, isn't that what matters?
Well it's what matters to me, to be sure.
Week 13: (Ending 12.15.96)
VOY - Macrocosm (Airdate 12.11.96)
Picard got to play badass in the recent First Contact flick. Sisko gets to play badass nearly every time he's on the screen. Welp, guess they gotta give Janeway a badass moment too. Shame it's by way of a blatant Aliens rip-off.
This could have been an alright outing of brainless action but, aside from the initial mystery involving the ship, I was never involved in the plot. Doesn't help that it's totally derailed with a lengthy backstory in the middle of the whole damned thing, nor that the final 'action' sequences felt like I was watching a third-rate FPS video game. Not to mention hearing the buzzing sound of flies was meant to be scary, but instead comes off as silly. And how does a freakin' knife kill a virus, exactly!? It has no heart, lungs, or vital organs to puncture. Ugh... thinking... too... much... again...
I'll grant this though: I quite enjoyed seeing the beasties attack that holo-spa!
A two-week break, then DS9 comes back with a solo week of its own. Huh, hope it's better than this solo week of VOY's. It feels so wrong giving a win to such crummy episodes.
Weekly Winner
VOY
Next:
DS9 - Rapture
VOY - Macrocosm (Airdate 12.11.96)
Picard got to play badass in the recent First Contact flick. Sisko gets to play badass nearly every time he's on the screen. Welp, guess they gotta give Janeway a badass moment too. Shame it's by way of a blatant Aliens rip-off.
This could have been an alright outing of brainless action but, aside from the initial mystery involving the ship, I was never involved in the plot. Doesn't help that it's totally derailed with a lengthy backstory in the middle of the whole damned thing, nor that the final 'action' sequences felt like I was watching a third-rate FPS video game. Not to mention hearing the buzzing sound of flies was meant to be scary, but instead comes off as silly. And how does a freakin' knife kill a virus, exactly!? It has no heart, lungs, or vital organs to puncture. Ugh... thinking... too... much... again...
I'll grant this though: I quite enjoyed seeing the beasties attack that holo-spa!
A two-week break, then DS9 comes back with a solo week of its own. Huh, hope it's better than this solo week of VOY's. It feels so wrong giving a win to such crummy episodes.
Weekly Winner
VOY
Next:
DS9 - Rapture
Ah, Aliens! Now that was a great film. Unfortunately, Star Trek has never been able to approach that level of intensity, not in Starship Mine, not in First Contact and certainly not here. It's sort of OK, but I'd rather be watching Sigourney!
no doubt, you'll heap praise upon rapture just because it's ds9, and macrocosm is a blatant alien rip-off because it's voyager. just compare it to the singularly new ideas of first contact, never seen before.i like your objectivity.
The Q And The Gray was a very disappointing follow up to Death Wish. The Q are at their best when they have something to teach us lowly humans, so this episodes falls far short from that objective. It drops into silliness more often than it should, so easily finishes bottom this week.
The Ascent is a really nice character episode, giving Odo and Quark the spotlight for a change. It's a very strong episode inspite of being nothing particularly original. Odo having to rely on Quark is one is worst nightmares, but it's played really well and the ending is sweet.
Falling Towards Apotheosis wins for me too, mostly for the Kosh storyline. Old Kosh vs. New Kosh is a wonder to see, especially as we see what they really look like. The tension increases throughout the episode with continued depressing updates from Ivanova. The Centauri storyline is good also, with Cartargia's insanity perhaps delving a bit too far into absurdity.
Macroscom is a very dull Aliens rip-off, and I don't have much else to say on the matter. It's just not a good episode! I really don't like a lot of season three VOY. In seasons one and two there were wild blips between excellent and crap, but season three seemed to be more crap than anything else. I guess we wait and see if anything good comes out of it.
There's a massive difference in quality between Rapture and Macrocosm really. VOY has much better episodes up its sleeve though.
The Ascent is a really nice character episode, giving Odo and Quark the spotlight for a change. It's a very strong episode inspite of being nothing particularly original. Odo having to rely on Quark is one is worst nightmares, but it's played really well and the ending is sweet.
Falling Towards Apotheosis wins for me too, mostly for the Kosh storyline. Old Kosh vs. New Kosh is a wonder to see, especially as we see what they really look like. The tension increases throughout the episode with continued depressing updates from Ivanova. The Centauri storyline is good also, with Cartargia's insanity perhaps delving a bit too far into absurdity.
Macroscom is a very dull Aliens rip-off, and I don't have much else to say on the matter. It's just not a good episode! I really don't like a lot of season three VOY. In seasons one and two there were wild blips between excellent and crap, but season three seemed to be more crap than anything else. I guess we wait and see if anything good comes out of it.
There's a massive difference in quality between Rapture and Macrocosm really. VOY has much better episodes up its sleeve though.
Week 14: (Ending 01.05.97)
DS9 - Rapture (Airdate 12.30.96)
This is such a blatant rip-off of VOY's Sacred Ground, in that both shows deal with the concept of faith and the personal sacrifices the captain must make to take that leap. And whereas we get to see Janeway paint pictures, take an acid trip, and talk to old people in order to maybe kinda sorta not look for a scientific answer to the dilemma, all Sisko does is discover an ancient city, postpone Bajor's admittance to the Federation, drop some intriguing foreshadow regarding the Dominion, turn to Kai Winn as an unlikely ally (giving her a fascinating new dimension as a character in the process), reach a state of self-affirmation of what his role as The Emissary entails, and solidify the bond between his son and the returning Kassidy Yates, all the while putting his life on the line by putting his faith in what he feels the Prophets have designed for him. Puh-leez.
Man, it's a good thing this was a solo week for DS9, earning it the default victory.
Weekly Winner
DS9
Next:
DS9 - The Darkness And The Light
VOY - Fair Trade
DS9 - Rapture (Airdate 12.30.96)
This is such a blatant rip-off of VOY's Sacred Ground, in that both shows deal with the concept of faith and the personal sacrifices the captain must make to take that leap. And whereas we get to see Janeway paint pictures, take an acid trip, and talk to old people in order to maybe kinda sorta not look for a scientific answer to the dilemma, all Sisko does is discover an ancient city, postpone Bajor's admittance to the Federation, drop some intriguing foreshadow regarding the Dominion, turn to Kai Winn as an unlikely ally (giving her a fascinating new dimension as a character in the process), reach a state of self-affirmation of what his role as The Emissary entails, and solidify the bond between his son and the returning Kassidy Yates, all the while putting his life on the line by putting his faith in what he feels the Prophets have designed for him. Puh-leez.
Man, it's a good thing this was a solo week for DS9, earning it the default victory.
Weekly Winner
DS9
Next:
DS9 - The Darkness And The Light
VOY - Fair Trade
/\ Come again?
Anyway, I think Rapture is a great episode. See, this is why I think Season 5 is the peak. You've got the darker storylines and the Dominion stuff working really nicely, but the Emissary and Bajor stuff is still good as well. Seeing Sisko as a true believer was really interesting, as was the divide between the senior staff over the issue and I love what they did with Winn here. Deep Space Nine was a rich tapestry around this time and this episode was an important part of that.
Anyway, I think Rapture is a great episode. See, this is why I think Season 5 is the peak. You've got the darker storylines and the Dominion stuff working really nicely, but the Emissary and Bajor stuff is still good as well. Seeing Sisko as a true believer was really interesting, as was the divide between the senior staff over the issue and I love what they did with Winn here. Deep Space Nine was a rich tapestry around this time and this episode was an important part of that.
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