Drop the S31 show for a Captain Pike show?

[Noname Given]

Did the government hire him to head up a department knowing he was a homicidal maniac?

It does surprise me that people don’t get what my actual objection is.

From all accounts from Kurtzman Mirror Gergiou WON'T be the head of Section 31; Lt. Tyler will be the head...so yeah, I don't know what your objection is.

 

[EnderAKH]

For me, it's not an ACTUAL government doing this. It is made up. Make believe. And the same way I can root for Dexter (good one), Walter White, Scorpius, and other protagonists who do otherwise horrific things, I'm fine with this. Star Trek does ALL KINDS of unrealistic things, from tech stuff like transporters and universal translators, to behavioral stuff like lack of money, the joint exploratory/military that is Star Fleet, or an entire planet wearing the same aluminum foil jumpsuits. If the actual CIA was putting Jeffrey Dahmer or Osama Bin Laden in charge, I would care. I do not care at all if it happens in a fictional environment and leads to stories I find entertaining.

 

[fireproof78]

For me, it's not an ACTUAL government doing this. It is made up. Make believe. And the same way I can root for Dexter (good one), Walter White, Scorpius, and other protagonists who do otherwise horrific things, I'm fine with this. Star Trek does ALL KINDS of unrealistic things, from tech stuff like transporters and universal translators, to behavioral stuff like lack of money, the joint exploratory/military that is Star Fleet, or an entire planet wearing the same aluminum foil jumpsuits. If the actual CIA was putting Jeffrey Dahmer or Osama Bin Laden in charge, I would care. I do not care at all if it happens in a fictional environment and leads to stories I find entertaining.

Excellent point.

 

[XCV330]

Did the government hire him to head up a department knowing he was a homicidal maniac?

It does surprise me that people don’t get what my actual objection is.

I would not say the Empress is a homicidal maniac. She's quite disciplined about who she kills. If she enjoys the act, well, everyone has a hobby, and it's better to do what you love, especially when the entire thing is sanctioned by an organization that needs that kind of thing done once in awhile.

 

[fireproof78]

I would not say the Empress is a homicidal maniac. She's quite disciplined about who she kills. If she enjoys the act, well, everyone has a hobby, and it's better to do what you love, especially when the entire thing is sanctioned by an organization that needs that kind of thing done once in awhile.

Yeah, it's not like the Federation has never done anything sneaky, underhanded or killed people.

 

[Lord Garth]

I'll respond to the part of this thread that's not going around in constant circles. If I want to go through constant circles, up and down and all around, there's a fair opening up, in a little over a month. Right near where I live. Great stuff. And a Hell of a lot more fun than this.

More 'Star Trek' shows will be announced so we could still get a "Pike" series at some point.

A Pike Series is something I would've looked forward to but the gatekeepers have ruined it for me. I don't want it now. They're looking forward to it a little bit too much. And have made it abundantly clear this is what they want instead of Discovery or Section 31. As such, I'm now looking at it more than a little bit slanty-eyed.

 

[The Wormhole]

Who said he was redeemed? The only person we see interact with him is Luke. I doubt the Rebels would’ve hired him if he had survived.

They did in the Infinities comics.

 

[fireproof78]

A Pike Series is something I would've looked forward to but the gatekeepers have ruined it for me. I don't want it now. They're looking forward to it a little bit too much. And have made it abundantly clear this is what they want instead of Discovery or Section 31. As such, I'm now looking at it more than a little bit slanty-eyed.

While I appreciate the sentiment I personally loved Mount as Pike and just want more of him.

 

[Lord Garth]

I wonder what this board would've been like when the Section 31 episodes of DS9 were airing? Had TrekBBS been fully formed and not just starting out. If this is how it would've went back then, I would've been out of here faster than you can type "Godwin" or "ludicrous speed".

All I know is: I like Georgiou, the DS9 episodes "Inquisition" & "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges", and the over-the-top reactions I've seen are grossly out of proportion with the series we'll probably actually be watching. Done by people who don't even want to watch it beyond sampling the first episode. And most of what's been hashed out has nothing to do with the actual show itself. It's all TNZ fodder.

 

[fireproof78]

I wonder what this board would've been like when the Section 31 episodes of DS9 were airing? Had TrekBBS been fully formed and not just starting out. If this is how it would've went back then, I would've been out of here faster than you can type "Godwin" or "ludicrous speed".

All I know is: I like Georgiou, the DS9 episodes "Inquisition" & "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges", and the over-the-top reactions I've seen are grossly out of proportion with the series we'll probably actually be watching. Done by people who don't even want to watch it beyond sampling the first episode. And most of what's been hashed out has nothing to do with the actual show itself. It's all TNZ fodder.

Well, obviously our media consumption habits indicate what sort of people we are, just like watching violent shows indicate we are obviously violent people.

 

[Lord Garth]

Well, obviously our media consumption habits indicate what sort of people we are, just like watching violent shows indicate we are obviously violent people.

Fredric Wertham would be proud.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I wonder what this board would've been like when the Section 31 episodes of DS9 were airing? Had TrekBBS been fully formed and not just starting out. If this is how it would've went back then, I would've been out of here faster than you can type "Godwin" or "ludicrous speed".

All I know is: I like Georgiou, the DS9 episodes "Inquisition" & "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges", and the over-the-top reactions I've seen are grossly out of proportion with the series we'll probably actually be watching. Done by people who don't even want to watch it beyond sampling the first episode. And most of what's been hashed out has nothing to do with the actual show itself. It's all TNZ fodder.

The Section 31 of DS9 was an illegal conspiracy between a group of officers. The Section 31 of Disco is an officially sanctioned SS, complete with military oversight and a fleet of ships.

 

[Lord Garth]

The Section 31 of DS9 was an illegal conspiracy between a group of officers. The Section 31 of Disco is an officially sanctioned SS, complete with military oversight and a fleet of ships.

That's not what I thought in 1999. "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" and Ross resorting to using them and that heated argument between him and Bashir drove it home to me.

I just don't subscribe to the rationale that "we didn't think they were real". I never did. Not after that episode. I understand that this is what some people thought to justify it in their minds, but that's never what I thought.

 

[F. King Daniel]

That's not what I thought in 1999. "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" and Ross resorting to using them and that heated argument between him and Bashir drove it home to me.

I just don't subscribe to the rationale that "we didn't think they were real". I never did. Not after that episode. I understand that this is what some people thought to justify it in their minds, but that's never what I thought.

Have any of the DS9 writers/producers said anything about Discovery's version of S31 (or Into Darkness', which is very much the blueprint for Disco's)? Is there a definitive answer about S31's original intent?

Personally, I loved the idea that Sloan was behind the whole thing, and everyone else was tricked into thinking there was much more of S31 than there really was. But of course ENT definitively canonized the idea that it's existed for 200 years (and the novelverse made them the masterminds of every questionable Starfleet decision ever)

 

[Gonzo]

I wouldnt say S31 was illegal in DS9, more like dont ask, dont tell.

I dont really think it was a conspiracy either more like an open secret among the top brass of Starfleet and very much need to know only.

S31 definitely went deep underground after the events in Discovery and the size of the organisation was limited as well but that was to make sure such another situation like we got with Control didnt happen again.

All this talk of illegality with S31 and cannibalism with MU Georgiou is really rather childish, especially as cannibalism requires the eating of their own species rather than another which is something Georgiou has never done on screen.

Some of you doth protest too much.

 

[Lord Garth]

Have any of the DS9 writers/producers said anything about Discovery's version of S31 (or Into Darkness', which is very much the blueprint for Disco's)? Is there a definitive answer about S31's original intent.

I don't remember. It's been a long time, so I'll have to look it up. Ron Moore used to do Q&A's at time. I don't know if they still exist.

I have the DS9 Companion but I'm not home. I'll check that too when I get a chance. Unless someone beats me to it.

 

[F. King Daniel]

All this talk of illegality with S31 and cannibalism with MU Georgiou is really rather childish, especially as cannibalism requires the eating of their own species rather than another which is something Georgiou has never done on screen.

Some of you doth protest too much.

Seriously, in the context of Trek's world is it any less horrific than cannibalism? The "not the same species" defence is pedantic.

 

[Rahul]

... especially as cannibalism requires the eating of their own species rather than another which is something Georgiou has never done on screen.

Some of you doth protest too much.

This is really the weirdest fucking argument in favour of cannibalism (or "eating other sentient beings") I have ever heard.
And I have it heard so. much. around here.

Doesn't help that this argument entirely depends on technicalities about speciesm and hard racial demarcations.

It's not the definitions of words that make killing and eating other sentient people disgusting. It's the ethics.

 

[Gonzo]

Seriously, in the context of Trek's world is it any less horrific than cannibalism? The "not the same species" defence is pedantic.

Some members of this forum are very quick to point out inaccuracies in other members posts yet are quite happy to spout it themselves, others then start parroting them and entire threads end up full of halo polishing bullshit.

Not you specifically though, thats why I didnt reply directly to your post in this instance.

At the end of the day its horrible but it isnt cannibalism, I must admit I am very surprised to hear it from you of all people as you normally show more sense even when you dont particularly like something.

There is a bit too much holier than thou going on again in the threads (again not you specifically) and most of it is due to the dislike of Georgiou and the upcoming S31 show, it wouldnt be so bad if it didnt show such unwarranted bias against a show we havent even watched yet.

Take @BillJ as an example, it may surprise everyone to know that he is not a fan of Discovery (sorry for outing you ) which is fair enough but at least he watched it first before passing judgement.

Dont get me wrong if I had to I choose between the S31 show and a Pike/Enterprise show it would not be a hard decision but that doesnt mean I wont give the S31 show a fair chance, just like I have with Discovery.

Mind you I am not surprised the threads have devolved again, there isnt much else to talk about at the moment, any eta on the Short Treks?

 

[Rahul]

(again not you specifically) and most of it is due to the dislike of Georgiou and the upcoming S31 show, it wouldnt be so bad if it didnt show such unwarranted bias against a show we havent even watched yet.

We have seen MU Georgiou for two entire seasons already. And we had a full season of MU Georgiou operating for S31. We have a very good picture of how the character is depicted. This is not "critizing shows not being aired". This is critizising they utterly dropped the ball on depicting a murderous, genocidal cannibal in giving her the keys to a gouvernment sanctioned black ops organization and hero-worshipping her as the cool, leather-clad "girl doing the dirty stuff necessary".

There is a bit too much holier than thou going on again in the threads

If you think condemning worshippers of genocide and cannibalism is "houlier than thou"... I really can't help anymore.

At the end of the day its horrible but it isnt cannibalism