Yes, how dare we discuss different facets of the human condition through fictional characters. The horror.
Drop the S31 show for a Captain Pike show?
- Thread starter Tom
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Yes, the best way to have a nuanced discussion of the human condition is through silly cartoon characters that exaggerate humanity at its worst.
Can anyone here seriously say they have been enriched by the endless arguing about this? The cartoonishness was gets in the way of serious philosophical discussion, not facilitates it. It’s goofy nonsense that deliberately avoids any worthwhile introspection.
Meh, the complaining won't keep it from being an awesome show.
It's a good conversation to have - but it's been had about 50X already.
It's a good conversation to have - but it's been had about 50X already.
Please speak for yourself. I have enjoyed it, have gone through introspection and exploration. I'm sorry others are not enjoying it but I find it highly engaging.
And, yes, nuanced discussions can come from cartoon characters. Humanity has done that for ages. Yet, somehow Darth Vader is redeemable in a fictional world, while Georgiou, in a series that purports that humanity can evolve and become better, is not.
Yes, I have found this conversation highly enlightening as to others attitudes towards redemption for human beings.
I'm glad we're getting a Georgiou Series instead of a Pike Series.
I'm on the fence about whether or not it should take place in the 33rd Century so we don't have to hear the yakety-yack about it being in the TOS Era... or if it should take place in the 23rd Century precisely because of that.
I'm on the fence about whether or not it should take place in the 33rd Century so we don't have to hear the yakety-yack about it being in the TOS Era... or if it should take place in the 23rd Century precisely because of that.
If Darth Vader is the benchmark, I guess one could argue The Way to Eden had some really deep thoughts on the countercultural movement.
Seriously, the SW films are the definition of popcorn entertainment. I don’t look to them for philosophy, and I’d like more from Star Trek.
I'd like more too, but I'm ok with we don't get it.
Here's the thing-this discussion has illustrated perfectly that the future is not fit for all. That there are some people whom we do not want in this optimistic future society of Star Trek and that we are not even willing to acknowledge the fact that humans are capable of extreme evil.
Instead, we pontificate about how inappropriate it is for Georgiou to be a part of the Federation, when that just undoes so much of what TOS did, offering up hope that the Mirror Universe could change because of Mirror Spock, that Cardassia could change because of morally grey (evil depending on how you look at it) Garak and Damar.
Where is the optimism in just looking at the good parts of humanity, but denying growth and redemption to those we deem irredeemable?
You want deep conversations? Then let's have one instead of insisting that Georgiou is somehow the worst thing to happen to Star Trek.
Yes, I'm laughing the whole time...
Mirror Spock doesn't work now because he is irredeemable by the standards laid out for Georgiou. I wonder if Mirror Spock would be treated the same.
In regards to both shows. I mean I don't really care about a section 31 series and would much rather have a Pike show but...
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Yes, I'm laughing the whole time...
Mirror Spock doesn't work now because he is irredeemable by the standards laid out for Georgiou. I wonder if Mirror Spock would be treated the same.
No, MU Spock works because the potential for better was baked into him from the get-go. He was not good or bad, just a product of his world. That’s precisely why he’s the lynchpin of the episode. Georgiou, on the other hand, was played as a silly, eeeevil cartoon, and now they are trying to retrofit some nuance on her, while still indulging in the uglier appeals of her character.
Agree to disagree. Humanity is ugly.
Who said he was redeemed? The only person we see interact with him is Luke. I doubt the Rebels would’ve hired him if he had survived.
That’s exactly the opposite of the message that has sustained the franchise for 50+ years, IMO.
Yoda and Obiwan didn't exactly give him the boot when the 3 of them were chilling in their celestial photo op at the end.
Agreed. But we don't become better by saying we don't have a dark side, an ugly side. We don't improve ourselves by excluding people we seem not to be good enough.
He does get to be a kindly Force ghost, doesn’t he? But even if you want to spend much time thinking about that, which I don’t, it’s a Christian redemption image in that all sins can be forgiven if you renounce your evil ways before death. He wasn’t standing smirking about all his awesome light saber kills.
Georgiou wasn't taught it. The Federation offers a new opportunity to learn.
Anakin knew better .
Agreed, but that brings me back to my point about cartoonishness. Playing evil as funny and OTT, without any serious introspection, doesn’t lend itself to serious consideration of the darkness that lurks within us. It just makes it safe not to think about it.
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